July 8, 2010


ME + me : What the real me thinks about Animal Forum - 2  


I continue being not well at all etc. as before, and have to fear a new heatwave that has been announced, but I have meanwhile uploaded the Nederlogs for July 6 and July 7, that were for the most part written on or before July 6.

As you may know, I used the term "Animal Forum" earlier, and as it is apt I use it again.

What do I really think about the event sketched on  July 6 and July 7 - one may ask, perhaps with mock naivity.

It so happens that I have several e-mail correspondents who know a lot about ME. Some have it, and some don't, and I know them at least a little better than most or all on ME-forums and in some cases a lot better. Also, I am asked questions about ME/CFS and other things, and generally answer freely. For this reason, it is not irregularly easy to reconstruct what happened and what I thought about it from my emails.

Here are some of my replies over the last few days, in the order in which they were given.

1. On the moderators of ME-F
2. MM has passed away from ME-F
3. Lansbergen strikes again
4. Waiting and seeing what "our great community" does, or not
5. On implictly condoning
6. On joining ME-F

7. On passing away from ME-F
A. The differences between being Maarten Maartensz and being someone else
     B. What to do?
C. A story about what manner of man my father was
8. On storming blood banks

My replies are not edited (neither falsified nor toned down or altered), except for (i) cuts (ii) spelling errors and (iii) proper names, since it is none of the reader's business who I mail privately with.

1. On the moderators of ME-F

As to Patricia (and the same applies to Since): I don't mind them as much as you (seem to think). It's not so very ordinary to show some personal initiative and effort and risk-taking.

Also, I am serious about not knowing people from their posts or a few mails. So I am willing to make allowances for those who personally do things, while realizing that all I have about almost anyone on any forum is a few kilobytes of hasty incidental text and their anonymous say-so about all manner of things: What I've got, for the most part, is the menu rather than the dinner; the map rather than the territory; the tale rather than the flesh (or thew for you, if appropriate).

And most can't help this either, having ME, needing to be anonymous, being ill etc. - except that I wish they were a little more explicit about their own qualifications to set forth dogmatically on whatever they set forth on thus, as most do. A few say how they are qualified academically, but most regular posters carefully leave this or most of it out. Also, very few have anything like a personal site, and if they have it is usually quite limited and partial, and not well written.

My own main problems with forums around ME are (i) with trolls, and my probability is high they are on both forums, and (ii) spending time and energy on trivia. Also, I simply am less interested in socializing than most and not in need of comfort or assurance, while all three are perfectly valid interests on a patients' forum. I am mostly interested in information about and around my disease and in effective advocacy for patients with ME and for myself, who is somewhat specially placed. All the rest is secondary, but should not irritate too much nor cost much forced loss of time and energy.

I suppose you know and agree and I just wanted to spell it out for you. O, and it also is really hard to get me, for that matter, for anyone. E.g.: unlike virtually all long time serious ME-patients - it seems - I do not look upon myself foremost as an ME-patient but (still, and since 20) as a logical philosopher, and indeed have been writing and reading by far the most in these subjects and related ones (like maths).

And in fact, I simply have thought and read much about subjects and in ways the great majority just doesn't care about, doesn't know, and/or can't do - like having spent most of my life on Assyrian and Sumerian. O, and "for a philosopher" that is a bit odd to hold, seeing also I can write, but then I really believe most of the fundamental problems are mostly mathematical and abstract.

2. MM has passed away from ME-F

Dear X,

The message is as in the title, and the main reason or at least trigger is that everyone studiously looked the other way as regards my diatribe, indeed as studiously as medical folks and bureaucrats do when seeing a person with ME asking for help, next to incitement to things I think are illegal in Holland and anyway immoral in my view.

I simply don't want to be associated with folks that (semi-publicly) discuss defiling blood in bloodbanks. Indeed, I believe that the best guess is that part of the hystery for it is by CDC-trolls, who'd love to arrest a crowd of mad women with blood on their face and socks in their hand for disturbing the peace and threatening or harassing bureaucrats.

I have pulled all my posts from ME-F (useless anyway, since you were the only one I had a rational discussion with there, and I seem to write to be studiously neglected) since I want no guilt by association and also not work for the cat's cunt (Dutch idiom in direct translation for: "totally in vain", in polite Brit-speak), but am now among my peers as Z (..), basically to keep track. Also, I am not above mindgames, in our community of Lansbergens and their respectful equals.

3. Lansbergen tries again

As usual, everybody found a far more imporant subject, except Lansbergen, who just innocently repeated the innocent questiong it did on May 3, setting me up, and complaining to Mark who had just privately verified that personally I do not like anti-semitism, and indeed that my father and grandfather spend long years in concentration-camps, where my grandfather also was murdered, essentially by starvation, overwork and beatings, being 67 when he was arrested:

(Lansbergen's text on July 5, 2010:)

This is what I posted on PR


Post 1684

Moderator Note: Reference deleted because it was felt to be offensive to Dutch forum members.

Maarten, do you realise that includes all dutch members of this forum and their ancestors?

What about all the other dutch people that suffered in concentrationcamps?

A real pro, I'd say. It really wants me off, so I must really be marked as a danger for some.

What is very sickening to me, and the source of great arrogance and disdain, is everyone looking the other way suddenly, just as happened at PR around May 23: Only Fly(bro), Lily and me really protested. The rest sort of complained, as guests in the house of Mine Host, automatic appropriator of their efforts.

Incidentally, talking of Mine Host: I recently realized that part of what made him so hard to understand for me is that he is queer. Being 10 years younger than me, it very probably means he learned to lie like a pro, which then was improved upon by 10 years EST and refined by large doses of camp.

I probably can't say so in public these days, but that goes a large way to account for his poses, posturing and continuous consciously cultivated ambiguity and ambivalence.

4. Waiting and seeing what "our great community" does, or not

Well Xie, they haven't thrown me out so far, and that would be a stupid thing to do, but I have irritated many in my life, as I told you. My guess is the vast majority prays it will pass away from itself if you don't attend to it, and will take care not to take position, and will be very busily occupied in other matters.

I'll see and wait what happens or not, and you are your own woman. It's my guess though that if you join as yourself, you'll get many hugs and PMs, whereas I don't know what happens if you try to apply anonymously. I've seen various arrivals I don't know from Adam, not even pseudonymously, several of which don't post at all but just lurk.

Nobody seems to care, and indeed nobody has a site with some following.

5. On implictly condoning

Dear Xie,

One more point on joining ME-F (and indeed on PR-F): One of the many reasons for protesting as soon as I'd read Patricia's mail is that I don't want to be told in a court

"But you were on that site, and you read what amounted to plans of terrorism, and you never spoke up nor reported it to the police."

I don't know the probability for this happening; I do know that at present 1 in 5 Dutchmen is effectively nazi-like where it concerns Muslims, although they are most offended to hear so, of course; and I do know suddenly, and after these camp-proponents (Wilders some years ago: "I want all European muslims in camps, so that we can put them on transports." - more or less literally) were main winners in parliamentary elections a month ago suddenly almost all public Dutchmen have grown very kind to him and his "my one and half million voters".

If I hadn't been ill, I had re-emigrated 30 years ago, after having seen the University of Amsterdam, and having been told, repeatedly, I was a fascist for saying that I did not think Marx was a great philosopher, and other similar evil things.

Incidentally: It did not have much to do with me, as a person, and I never revealed my family-background in the UvA. Had I done so while having kept silent and conformistic - "O yes, Marx is the greatest genius their ever was. I am so glad we agree! Also, as you said so well just now, all males are pigs and machos. Power to The Sisterhood! Power to Our Brave CP!" (for most key students, who eventually got academic professorships, where CP-partymembers).

Indeed, I never discussed this as my parents were alive, and members, simply to avoid problems for them and for me. - might have gotten me three professorships, and I ain't kidding you: I never met anyone in the UvA who wrote or argued like me.

Had I revealed at the time I was of Genuine Proletarian Descent with a father and grandfather such as I had, I might have been made Chairman of the Board when 35, even with ME, provided I had never let view my real opinions, and publicly lied with the liars, for things were run on that basis: By loyalties, by party-membership, by cliques. Like in the Soviet Union and China indeed.

Anyway: To return to my point at the beginning: I don't mind being nailed for what I have said, but I do mind being nailed for the idiocies of others I happen to consort with, and I also mind having to answer for these, or being made co-responsible for these.

6. On joining ME-F

There are now three mods, A, J and F (aka Q  on PR).

Meanwhile there are more "replies" to the Blood thread, but they are all nicely evasive, as if I hadn't written anything at all. It's just the same as in Amsterdam, and as the young boy who saw that the emperor has no clothes on. (As I once wrote, that story has a little known ending: After the boy had called out, he and his family were sectioned, and then sentenced to life imprisonment for lèse majesté and offending Our Public's peace of mind.)

It's very familiar, and one reason why I am a strong proponent of eugenetics (as were Russell and Broad).

7. On passing away from ME-F

A. The differences between being Maarten Maartensz and being someone else

Anyway, my own point is that as MM I try to say what I believe and desire, and want to protect the name. As Z anything goes, especially as everybody sat, looked, and looked away, and now seems most amazed and not a bit offended too, no doubt. To be fair: Y sent me a nice mail, but then I have been nice to her in mail. K really got upset about the first attempt in May, also in a personal mail. But that's it, all told, including all worthies on ME-F. Sorry: loss of face in my book, or unveiling of face, if you please. Again, I don't mind egoism, but then be honest. I don't like Kelvin Lord on PR much, because he is an unashamed trader, but at least he doesn't lie, and you know his type, and why he can afford ampligen. What the forum-folks don't get is my enormous experience with activists, and like most of those, they want to have their jam and eat it: Throw stones at the police, but from a safe anonymous distance, while feeling themselves heroes. One of the things I surprised myself with when 16 or 17 is that I just refused to throw stones at the police, or anything else, on the ground that they were just poor trash doing a job. That was considered very strange by my friends, and I have seen a very great lot of such stone-throwing by my generation and the next.

B. What to do?

Hacked off though you must be, I do hope you're not going to withdraw completely, Maarten - I should miss your wit and sagacity.
Withdraw completely from what, Xie? I still have ME, I still am mighty angry - saeve indignatio, indeed (Juvenal, surely your daily bedside literature) - I still can write, I still have my site, I still am who I am. I merely got rid of what has turned out to be more time-consuming, more dangerous and more irritating than it's worth. And I really don't like people standing by looking on the happening of a drowning, while discussing what the drowning person should have said to get a fair bit of help, or calling out to him how he should swim, and to beware of water.

And unlike all those presently raving and ranting patients, I have no faith to loose in mankind. It needs eugenetical redesign, I concluded already long ago. Also, I am very familiar with (..) contempt or disdain flowing through my veins. Incidentally there is a very wellwritten letter to my brother, of all people, who 10 years ago got a bit irritated by my disdain, on that very subject. It's very good Dutch, but will be praised as such only if I am safely dead, and not around to benefit from it or to berate my generation for its cowardice, greed and hypocrisy.

C. A story about what manner of man my father was

As my brother forgot for a moment, our father had a lot of it too. Here is the sort of education I had:

My father was a leading Amsterdam communist of the Dutch CP (CPN, abbreviated), and did a lot for them. In 1956 or early 57 there were elections of some kind, and my father got home one night laughing and vastly amused, and told us why: He had been transporting an election board for the CP, a painted wooden pane some 2x2 meters praising the CP, on his bike, while walking beside it, when stopped by a policeman, obviously because of the board, and probably because of Hungary's arisal against communism in 1956, repressed by Russian tanks. (Of course, my father was fully pro SU, as was the CP.) So my father told him to mind his own business, after which the policeman drew out his rubber truncheon and started to beat him. Now my father was very (athletic), having turned - gymnastics: rings - for the Dutch nation in fact, and was very strong. So he jumped right over the bike to its other side, and kept pushing and smiling at the copper, who ran around to beat him more, so that my father jumped back, and so on, until people were laughing in the street, and the cop walked away, probably not willing to make an arrest, because the CP had been very or rather popular in Holland, and especially in Amsterdam since WW II, where they were, apart from some Christians, the only ones to resist.

Being 6, I asked my father whether he hadn't been afraid of the cop. My father looked at me and laughed and said: "Son, compared to the SS this was naught at all." (*)  In the camps he had personally helped people tortured almost to death, or beaten to pulp. But that I learned much later. Here he just laughed and had had fun, and clearly felt a lot of contempt for the cop, regarding him as a weakling and an idiot - and here it should be mentioned that he and his father had been arrested in June 1941, by the Amsterdam police, after being betrayed by a Dutchman, for money, and that my father was straightaway delivered by the same to the SS for interrogation.

8. On storming blood banks

It's probably just as well that many of them are too sick to demonstrate.

Quite so, Xie. Personally, I wait for clarification about the Alter study. I have read a lot of speculation, but the facts of the case are that he is a really big name in his field, and 75. Dr. Yes opined he doesn't know of a government ceding to a scientist that works for it (I do: Sacharov, Alexandrov and indeed Leibniz), but the man is 75 and has achieved already what a man in his field could achieve apart from this. If I were him and government tried to block my study, I'd pass it to Ortho and plead ignorance.

Anyway: XMRV exists, and needs investigation and will be investigated, apart from ME. Or the world blows up, and all can worry about something really worrisome.


Anyway, Xie: Don't worry much. It all involves more ifs than any of the players seems to be able to keep in mind, and the generally best thing is to wait and be patient.

Best wishes,


P.S. And that's where it's at on July 8, 2010. The administrators and moderators of ME-F all have been far to busy - I imagine - to reply to mail I sent, and may like to pretend like Cort that they don't understand what all the fuss could possibly be about.

Meanwhile they claim a lot about personally living in "living hell", being grandmothers with children and grandchildren, and cosy incomes and pensions, never having been gassed or threatened with murder by real pros protected by the local authorities either - but undoubtedly ill and mistreated by medical people, I do agree, and treated like shit themselves (that invites a human-all-too-human passing it on to others).

O, perhaps I lie? All 250+ MB on my site? With obvious defamation and slander about personally named bureaucrats, mayors and aldermen, all known to them since many years, all completely unanswered except by the mayorly letter that they wouldn't answer because my language wasn't appropriate?

Well... I am very glad I am not an ordinary man, and don't stem from ordinary men or women either:

Kohlberg's investigations and explanations:

Kohlberg is another psychologist who investigated the actual moral behavior and thinking of human beings. Again, I quote from the "Introduction to Psychology" by Hilgard & Atkinson:

Stages in the development of moral values



Level I. Premoral


1. Punishment and obedience orientation

Obeys rules in order to avoid punishment

2. Naive instrumental hedonism

Conforms to obtain rewards, to have favors returned.

Level II. Morality of conventional role-conformity


3. "Good-boy" morality of maintaining good relations, approval of others.

Conforms to avoid disapproval, maintaining good relations, dislike by others.

4. Authority maintaining morality.

Conforms to avoid censure by legitimate authorities, with resultant guilt

Level III. Morality of self-accepted moral principles


5. Morality of contract, of individual rights, and of democratically accepted law.

Conforms to maintain the respect of the impartial spectator judging in terms of community welfare.

6. Morality of individual principles and conscience.

Conforms to avoid self-condemnation.

"Kohlberg's studies indicate that the moral judgments of children who are seven and younger are predominantly at Level I - actions are evaluated in terms of whether they avoid punishment or lad to rewards. By age 13, a majority of the moral dilemmas are resolved at Level II - actions are evaluated in terms of maintaining a good image in the eyes of other people. This is the level of conventional morality. In the first stage at this level (Stage 3) one seeks approval by being "nice"; this orientation expands in the next stage (Stage 4) to include "doing one's duty", showing respect for authority, and conforming to the social order in which one is raised.

According to Kohlberg, many individuals never progress beyond Level II. He sees the stages of moral development as closely tied to Piaget's stages of cognitive development, and only if a person has achieved the later stages of formal operational thought is he capable of the kind of abstract thinking necessary for postconventional morality at Level III. The highest stage of moral development (Level III, stage 6) requires formulating abstract ethical principles and conforming to them to avoid self-condemnation. Kohlberg reports that less than 10 percent of his subjects over age 16 show (...) kind of "clear-principled" Stage 6 thinking (...)"

"Kohlberg describes the child as a "moral philosopher" who develops moral standards of his own; these standards do not necessarily come from parents or peers but emerge from the cognitive interaction of the child with his social environment. Movement from one stage to the next involves an internal cognitive reorganization rater than a simple acquisition of the moral concepts prevalent in his culture."

"Kohlberg claims that moral thought and moral action are closely related. For proof he cites a study in which college students were given an opportunity to cheat on a test. Only 11 percent of those who reached Level III on the moral dilemmas test cheated. In contrast, 42 percent of the students at the lower levels of moral judgement ceated (...)".

And I met very few credible level III people in my life of 60 years, alas, and Kohlberg's upper limit of "less than 10 percent of his subjects over age 16 show (...) kind of "clear-principled" Stage 6 thinking (...)" seems to me very optimistic, especially if one considers that talk is easy, and any least way smart person knows how to pretend to be good. And "thinking" is not acting either (other than in a here irrelevant sense).

So yes: I do often feel as if I live among the colorblind, and yes I try to cope with that like Jesus: "Father forgive them, for they don't know what they do."

But with me that stops before sadism and lying for personal profit, most stupid as that is, for a man of my mental capacity, in the sort of "civilization" I am forced to survive in, if I want to survive - and it won't get any better soon this century, my very own babyboomers generation of hypocritical parasites have made certain allover the world, with postmodernist careerism, lies, and personal parasitism: Scientific Realism versus Postmodernism.

P.P.S. The brave Patricia is now inviting people on ME-F to put up their personal pictures (or what is claimed to be one, but let that pass). I suggest that you be very reticent with this, especially if you live in England or indeed the US. In both countries people have been sectioned because of ME/CFS, and very badly mistreated.

As to ME/CFS (that I prefer to call ME):

1. Anthony Komaroff

Ten discoveries about the biology of CFS (pdf)

3. Hillary Johnson

The Why

4. Consensus (many M.D.s) Canadian Consensus Government Report on ME (pdf)
5. Eleanor Stein

Clinical Guidelines for Psychiatrists (pdf)

6. William Clifford The Ethics of Belief
7. Paul Lutus

Is Psychology a Science?

8. Malcolm Hooper Magical Medicine (pdf)

Short descriptions:

1. Ten reasons why ME/CFS is a real disease by a professor of medicine of Harvard.
2. Long essay by a professor emeritus of medical chemistry about maltreatment of ME.
3. Explanation of what's happening around ME by an investigative journalist.
4. Report to Canadian Government on ME, by many medical experts.
5. Advice to psychiatrist by a psychiatrist who understands ME is an organic disease
6. English mathematical genius on one's responsibilities in the matter of one's beliefs:
   "it is wrong always, everywhere, and for anyone, to believe anything upon
     insufficient evidence
7. A space- and computer-scientist takes a look at psychology.
8. Malcolm Hooper puts things together status 2010.

"Ah me! alas, pain, pain ever, forever!

No change, no pause, no hope! Yet I endure.
I ask the Earth, have not the mountains felt?
I ask yon Heaven, the all-beholding Sun,
Has it not seen? The Sea, in storm or calm,
Heaven's ever-changing Shadow, spread below,
Have its deaf waves not heard my agony?
Ah me! alas, pain, pain ever, forever!
     - (Shelley, "Prometheus Unbound") 

    "It was from this time that I developed my way of judging the Chinese by dividing them into two kinds: one humane and one not. "
     - (Jung Chang)

See also: ME -Documentation and ME - Resources

P.P.S. ME - Resources needs is a Work In Progress that hasn't progressed today.

(*) I know what these were and did, since my parents had books about this (in a very small house, with three children, so not capable of being hidden) and at age 6 I had taken already a look at all of them, being then like now a most avid reader.

Incidentally, in case you ask: For a young child pictures from the concentration-camps were odd, but for a child most adult things seem odd and incomprehensible, and I had been told that the second world war had been horrible. Also, from age 0 on, my parents had commemorated the February Strike, the nominal reason my father and grandfather had been sought and arrested. But I wasn't told any horrific stories, though my parents knew plenty: I just was told it had been quite awful and difficult to survive and many had died, and indeed then already knew quite a lot of "uncles" and "aunts" who had survived Buchenwald or Ravensbrueck or Mauthausen (all concentrations camps close to the hearts and minds of the Dutch Lansbergens and English Mark Berrys and their ilk, that to those of my ilk makes a decidedly inferior impression - if you pardon my French: Untermenschen).

Maarten Maartensz

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