- one may ask, perhaps with mock naivity.
It so happens that I have several e-mail correspondents who know a lot
about ME. Some have it, and some don't, and I know them at least a little
better than most or all on ME-forums and in some cases a lot better.
Also, I am asked questions about ME/CFS and other things, and generally
answer freely. For this reason, it is not irregularly easy to reconstruct
what happened and what I thought about it from my emails.
Here are some of my replies over the last few days, in the order in which
they were given.
1. On the moderators of ME-F
2. MM has passed away from ME-F
3. Lansbergen strikes again
4. Waiting and seeing what "our great community" does, or
5. On implictly condoning
6. On joining ME-F
7. On passing away from ME-F
A. The differences between
being Maarten Maartensz and being someone else
B. What to do?
C. A story
about what manner of man my father was
8. On storming blood banks
My replies are not edited (neither falsified nor toned down or altered),
except for (i) cuts (ii) spelling errors and (iii) proper names, since it
is none of the reader's business who I mail privately with.
1. On the moderators of ME-F
As to Patricia (and the same applies to Since): I
don't mind them as much as you (seem to think). It's not so very ordinary
to show some personal initiative and effort and risk-taking.
Also, I am serious about not knowing people from their posts or a few
mails. So I am willing to make allowances for those who personally do
things, while realizing that all I have about almost anyone on any forum
is a few kilobytes of hasty incidental text and their anonymous say-so
about all manner of things: What I've got, for the most part, is the menu
rather than the dinner; the map rather than the territory; the tale
rather than the flesh (or thew for you, if appropriate).
And most can't help this either, having ME, needing to be anonymous,
being ill etc. - except that I wish they were a little more explicit
about their own qualifications to set forth dogmatically on whatever they
set forth on thus, as most do. A few say how they are qualified
academically, but most regular posters carefully leave this or most of it
out. Also, very few have anything like a personal site, and if they have
it is usually quite limited and partial, and not well written.
My own main problems with forums around ME are (i) with trolls, and my
probability is high they are on both forums, and (ii) spending time and
energy on trivia. Also, I simply am less interested in socializing than
most and not in need of comfort or assurance, while all three are
perfectly valid interests on a patients' forum. I am mostly interested in
information about and around my disease and in effective advocacy for
patients with ME and for myself, who is somewhat specially placed. All
the rest is secondary, but should not irritate too much nor cost much
forced loss of time and energy.
I suppose you know and agree and I just wanted to spell it out for you.
O, and it also is really hard to get me, for that matter, for anyone.
E.g.: unlike virtually all long time serious ME-patients - it seems - I
do not look upon myself foremost as an ME-patient but (still, and since
20) as a logical philosopher,
and indeed have been writing and reading by far the most in these
subjects and related ones (like maths).
And in fact, I simply have thought and read much about subjects and in
ways the great majority just doesn't care about, doesn't know, and/or
can't do - like having spent most of my life on Assyrian and Sumerian. O,
and "for a philosopher" that is a bit odd to hold, seeing also I can
write, but then I really believe most of the fundamental problems are
mostly mathematical and abstract.
2. MM has passed away from ME-F
The message is as in the title, and the main reason or at least trigger
is that everyone studiously looked the other way as regards my diatribe,
indeed as studiously as medical folks and bureaucrats do when seeing a
person with ME asking for help, next to incitement to things I think are
illegal in Holland and anyway immoral in my view.
I simply don't want to be associated with folks that (semi-publicly)
discuss defiling blood in bloodbanks. Indeed, I believe that the best
guess is that part of the hystery for it is by CDC-trolls, who'd love to
arrest a crowd of mad women with blood on their face and socks in their
hand for disturbing the peace and threatening or harassing bureaucrats.
I have pulled all my posts from ME-F (useless anyway, since you were the
only one I had a rational discussion with there, and I seem to write to
be studiously neglected) since I want no guilt by association and also
not work for the cat's cunt (Dutch idiom in direct translation for:
"totally in vain", in polite Brit-speak), but am now among my peers as Z
(..), basically to keep track. Also, I am not above mindgames, in our
community of Lansbergens and their respectful equals.
3. Lansbergen tries again
As usual, everybody found a far more imporant subject, except Lansbergen,
who just innocently repeated the innocent
questiong it did on May 3, setting me up, and complaining to Mark who
had just privately verified that personally I do not like anti-semitism,
and indeed that my father and
grandfather spend long years in concentration-camps, where my
grandfather also was murdered, essentially by starvation, overwork and
beatings, being 67 when he was arrested:
(Lansbergen's text on July 5, 2010:)
This is what I posted on PR
Moderator Note: Reference deleted because it was felt to be
offensive to Dutch forum members.
Maarten, do you realise that includes all dutch members of this
forum and their ancestors?
What about all the other dutch people that suffered in
A real pro, I'd say. It really wants me off, so I must really be
marked as a danger for some.
What is very sickening to me, and the source of great arrogance and
disdain, is everyone looking the other way suddenly, just as happened
at PR around May 23: Only Fly(bro), Lily and me really protested. The
rest sort of complained, as guests in the house of Mine Host,
automatic appropriator of their efforts.
Incidentally, talking of Mine Host: I recently realized that part of
what made him so hard to understand for me is that he is queer. Being
10 years younger than me, it very probably means he learned to lie
like a pro, which then was improved upon by 10 years EST and refined
by large doses of camp.
I probably can't say so in public these days, but that goes a large
way to account for his poses, posturing and continuous consciously
cultivated ambiguity and ambivalence.
4. Waiting and seeing what "our great
community" does, or not
Well Xie, they haven't thrown me out so far, and that would be a stupid
thing to do, but I have irritated many in my life, as I told you. My
guess is the vast majority prays it will pass away from itself if you
don't attend to it, and will take care not to take position, and will be
very busily occupied in other matters.
I'll see and wait what happens or not, and you are your own woman. It's
my guess though that if you join as yourself, you'll get many hugs and
PMs, whereas I don't know what happens if you try to apply anonymously.
I've seen various arrivals I don't know from Adam, not even
pseudonymously, several of which don't post at all but just lurk.
Nobody seems to care, and indeed nobody has a site with some following.
5. On implictly condoning
One more point on joining ME-F (and indeed on PR-F): One of the many
reasons for protesting as soon as I'd read Patricia's mail is that I
don't want to be told in a court
"But you were on that site, and you read what
amounted to plans of terrorism, and you never spoke up nor reported it to
I don't know the probability for this happening; I
do know that at present 1 in 5 Dutchmen is
effectively nazi-like where it concerns Muslims, although they are
most offended to hear so, of course; and I do know suddenly, and after
these camp-proponents (Wilders some years ago: "I want all European
muslims in camps, so that we can put them on transports." - more or less
literally) were main winners in parliamentary elections a month ago
suddenly almost all public Dutchmen have grown very kind to him and his
"my one and half million voters".
If I hadn't been ill, I had re-emigrated
30 years ago, after having seen the University of Amsterdam, and
having been told, repeatedly, I was a fascist for saying that I did not
think Marx was a
great philosopher, and other similar evil things.
Incidentally: It did not have much to do with me, as a person, and I
never revealed my family-background in the UvA. Had I done so while
having kept silent and
"O yes, Marx is the greatest genius their ever was. I am so glad we
agree! Also, as you said so well just now, all males are pigs and machos.
Power to The Sisterhood! Power to Our Brave CP!" (for
most key students, who eventually got academic professorships, where
Indeed, I never discussed this as my parents were alive, and members,
simply to avoid problems for them and for me. - might have gotten me
three professorships, and I ain't kidding you:
I never met anyone in the
UvA who wrote or argued like me.
Had I revealed at the time I was of Genuine Proletarian Descent with a
father and grandfather such as I had, I might have been made Chairman of
the Board when 35, even with ME, provided I had never let view my
real opinions, and publicly lied with the liars, for things were run on
that basis: By
loyalties, by party-membership, by cliques. Like in the Soviet Union
and China indeed.
Anyway: To return to my point at the beginning: I don't mind being
nailed for what I have said, but I do mind being nailed for the idiocies
of others I happen to consort with, and I also mind having to
answer for these, or being made co-responsible for these.
6. On joining ME-F
There are now three mods, A, J and F (aka Q on
Meanwhile there are more "replies" to the Blood thread, but they are all
nicely evasive, as if I hadn't written anything at all.
It's just the same as in
Amsterdam, and as the young boy who saw that the emperor has no
clothes on. (As I once wrote, that story has a little known ending: After
the boy had called out, he and his family were sectioned, and then
sentenced to life imprisonment for lèse majesté and offending Our
Public's peace of mind.)
It's very familiar, and
one reason why I am a strong proponent of eugenetics (as were
7. On passing away from ME-F
A. The differences between being Maarten Maartensz
and being someone else
Anyway, my own point is that as MM I try to say
what I believe and desire, and want to protect the name. As Z
anything goes, especially as everybody sat, looked, and looked away, and
now seems most amazed and not a bit offended too, no doubt. To be fair: Y
sent me a nice mail, but then I have been nice to her in mail. K really
got upset about the first attempt in May, also in a personal mail. But
that's it, all told, including all worthies on ME-F. Sorry: loss of face in
my book, or unveiling of face, if you please. Again, I don't mind
egoism, but then
be honest. I
don't like Kelvin Lord on PR much, because he is an unashamed trader, but
at least he doesn't lie, and you know his type, and why he can afford
ampligen. What the forum-folks don't get is my enormous experience with
activists, and like most of those, they want to have their jam and eat
it: Throw stones at the police, but from a safe anonymous distance, while
feeling themselves heroes. One of the things I surprised myself with when
16 or 17 is that I just refused to throw stones at the police, or
anything else, on the ground that they were just poor trash doing a job.
That was considered very strange by my friends, and I have seen a very
great lot of such stone-throwing by my generation and the next.
B. What to do?
Hacked off though you must be, I do hope you're not going
to withdraw completely, Maarten - I should miss your wit and
Withdraw completely from what, Xie? I still
have ME, I still am mighty angry - saeve indignatio, indeed
(Juvenal, surely your daily bedside literature) - I still can write,
I still have my site, I still am who I am. I merely got rid of
what has turned out to be more time-consuming, more dangerous and
more irritating than it's worth. And I really don't like people
standing by looking on the happening of a drowning, while discussing
what the drowning person should have said to get a fair bit of help,
or calling out to him how he should swim, and to beware of water.
And unlike all those presently raving and ranting patients, I have
no faith to loose in mankind.
It needs eugenetical redesign, I concluded already long ago.
Also, I am very familiar with (..) contempt or disdain flowing
through my veins. Incidentally
there is a very
wellwritten letter to my brother, of all people, who 10 years
ago got a bit irritated by my disdain, on that very subject. It's
very good Dutch, but will be praised as such only if I am safely
dead, and not around to benefit from it or
to berate my generation
for its cowardice, greed and hypocrisy.
C. A story about what
manner of man my father was
As my brother forgot for a moment,
our father had a lot of it too.
Here is the sort of education I had:
My father was a leading Amsterdam communist of the Dutch CP (CPN,
abbreviated), and did a lot for them. In 1956 or early 57 there were
elections of some kind, and my father got home one night laughing
and vastly amused, and told us why: He had been transporting an
election board for the CP, a painted wooden pane some 2x2 meters
praising the CP, on his bike, while walking beside it, when stopped
by a policeman, obviously because of the board, and probably because
of Hungary's arisal against communism in 1956, repressed by Russian
tanks. (Of course, my father was fully pro SU, as was the CP.) So my
father told him to mind his own business, after which the policeman
drew out his rubber truncheon and started to beat him. Now my father
was very (athletic), having turned - gymnastics: rings - for the
Dutch nation in fact, and was very strong. So he jumped right over
the bike to its other side, and kept pushing and smiling at the
copper, who ran around to beat him more, so that my father jumped
back, and so on, until people were laughing in the street, and the
cop walked away, probably not willing to make an arrest, because the
CP had been very or rather popular in Holland, and especially in
Amsterdam since WW II, where they were, apart from some Christians,
the only ones to resist.
Being 6, I asked my father whether he hadn't been afraid of the cop.
My father looked at me and laughed and said: "Son, compared to the
SS this was naught at all." (*)
In the camps he had personally
helped people tortured almost to death, or beaten to pulp. But
that I learned much later. Here he just laughed and had had fun, and
clearly felt a lot of contempt for the cop, regarding him as a
weakling and an idiot - and here it should be mentioned that he and
his father had been arrested in June 1941, by the Amsterdam police,
after being betrayed by a Dutchman, for money, and that my father
was straightaway delivered by the same to the SS for interrogation.
8. On storming blood banks
It's probably just as well that many of them are too
sick to demonstrate.
Quite so, Xie. Personally, I wait for
clarification about the Alter study. I have read a lot of speculation,
but the facts of the case are that he is a really big name in his
field, and 75. Dr. Yes opined he doesn't know of a government ceding
to a scientist that works for it (I do: Sacharov, Alexandrov and
indeed Leibniz), but the man is 75 and has achieved already what a man
in his field could achieve apart from this. If I were him and
government tried to block my study, I'd pass it to Ortho and plead
Anyway: XMRV exists, and needs investigation and will be investigated,
apart from ME. Or the world blows up, and all can worry about
something really worrisome.
Anyway, Xie: Don't worry much. It all involves more
ifs than any of the players seems to be able to keep in mind, and the
generally best thing is to wait and be patient.
P.S. And that's where it's at on July 8, 2010. The administrators
and moderators of ME-F all have been far to busy - I imagine - to reply
to mail I sent, and may like to pretend like Cort that they don't
understand what all the fuss could possibly be about.
Meanwhile they claim a lot about personally living in "living hell",
being grandmothers with children and grandchildren, and cosy incomes and
pensions, never having been gassed or threatened with murder by real pros
protected by the local authorities either - but undoubtedly ill and
mistreated by medical people, I do agree, and treated like shit
themselves (that invites a human-all-too-human passing it on to others).
I lie? All 250+ MB on my site?
With obvious defamation and slander about personally named bureaucrats,
mayors and aldermen, all known to them since many years, all completely
unanswered except by the mayorly letter that they wouldn't answer because
my language wasn't appropriate?
Well... I am very glad I am not an
and don't stem from ordinary men or women either:
Kohlberg's investigations and explanations:
Kohlberg is another psychologist who
investigated the actual moral behavior and thinking of human beings.
Again, I quote from the "Introduction to Psychology" by Hilgard &
Stages in the development of moral values
Level I. Premoral
1. Punishment and obedience orientation
Obeys rules in order to avoid
2. Naive instrumental hedonism
Conforms to obtain rewards, to have
Level II. Morality of conventional
3. "Good-boy" morality of
maintaining good relations, approval of others.
Conforms to avoid disapproval,
maintaining good relations, dislike by others.
4. Authority maintaining morality.
Conforms to avoid censure by
legitimate authorities, with resultant guilt
Level III. Morality of
self-accepted moral principles
5. Morality of contract, of
individual rights, and of democratically accepted law.
Conforms to maintain the respect of
the impartial spectator judging in terms of community welfare.
6. Morality of individual principles
Conforms to avoid self-condemnation.
studies indicate that the moral judgments of children who are seven and younger
are predominantly at Level I - actions are evaluated in terms of whether they
avoid punishment or lad to rewards. By age 13, a majority of the moral
dilemmas are resolved at Level II - actions are evaluated in terms of
maintaining a good image in the eyes of other people. This is the level of
conventional morality. In the first stage at this level (Stage 3) one seeks
approval by being "nice"; this orientation expands in the next
stage (Stage 4) to include "doing one's duty", showing respect for
authority, and conforming to the social order in which one is raised.
Kohlberg, many individuals never progress beyond Level II. He sees the stages
of moral development as closely tied to Piaget's stages of cognitive
development, and only if a person has achieved the later stages of formal
operational thought is he capable of the kind of abstract thinking necessary
for postconventional morality at Level III. The highest stage of moral
development (Level III, stage 6) requires formulating abstract ethical
principles and conforming to them to avoid self-condemnation. Kohlberg
reports that less than 10 percent of his subjects over age 16 show (...) kind
of "clear-principled" Stage 6 thinking (...)"
describes the child as a "moral philosopher" who develops moral
standards of his own; these standards do not necessarily come from parents or
peers but emerge from the cognitive interaction of the child with his social
environment. Movement from one stage to the next involves an internal
cognitive reorganization rater than a simple acquisition of the moral
concepts prevalent in his culture."
claims that moral thought and moral action are closely related. For proof he
cites a study in which college students were given an opportunity to cheat on
a test. Only 11 percent of those who reached Level III on the moral dilemmas
test cheated. In contrast, 42 percent of the students at the lower levels of
moral judgement ceated (...)".
And I met very few credible level III people in my life of
60 years, alas, and Kohlberg's upper limit of "less
than 10 percent of his subjects over age 16 show (...) kind of
"clear-principled" Stage 6 thinking (...)" seems to me
very optimistic, especially if one considers that talk is easy, and
any least way smart person knows how to pretend to be good. And "
is not acting either (other than in a here irrelevant sense).
So yes: I do often feel as if I live among the colorblind, and yes
I try to cope with that like Jesus: "Father forgive them, for they
don't know what they do."
But with me that stops before sadism and lying for personal profit,
most stupid as that is, for a man of my mental capacity, in the sort
of "civilization" I am forced to survive in, if I want to survive -
and it won't get any better soon this century, my very own babyboomers
generation of hypocritical parasites have made certain allover the
world, with postmodernist careerism, lies, and personal parasitism:
Scientific Realism versus Postmodernism.
P.P.S. The brave Patricia is now inviting people on ME-F to
put up their personal pictures (or what is claimed to be one, but let
that pass). I suggest that you be very reticent with this, especially
if you live in England or indeed the US. In both countries people have
been sectioned because of ME/CFS, and very badly mistreated.
Incidentally, in case you ask: For a young child
pictures from the concentration-camps were odd, but for a child most
adult things seem odd and incomprehensible, and I had been told that
the second world war had been horrible. Also, from age 0 on, my
parents had commemorated the
the nominal reason my father and grandfather had been sought and
arrested. But I wasn't told any horrific stories, though my parents
knew plenty: I just was told it had been quite awful and difficult to
survive and many had died, and indeed then already knew quite a lot of
"uncles" and "aunts" who had survived Buchenwald or Ravensbrueck or
Mauthausen (all concentrations camps close to the hearts and minds of
the Dutch Lansbergens and English Mark Berrys and their ilk, that to
those of my ilk makes a decidedly inferior impression - if you pardon
my French: Untermenschen).