On July 5, in the beginning of the night, I found the following by one of
the two Administrators of the new ME forum, which I had to reread a few
times before writing my reply under it, being the first to do so.
Here I should have left immediately, but being a Don Quixote I
tried argument and indeed wrote a long one, that then mostly PEM'd me till
today (part 0, that sung the praises of Lansberg and the shame of my
family being surpressed here):
1. Exposition and discussion
Having sketched my unique background, and having read what's now on
this list, I can say I have been myself extremely provoked without
giving in to violence (which I am quite capable of, for I have never
been a pascifist, and I am tall and have learned self-defense
techniques: I know where and how to hit and kick so it hurts a lot.)
So let me quote and answer some:
Belcanto: I agree that this may not be a good
idea. Just the idea could seem "threatening" to a lot of people -
as if saying "listen to us or else...". We don't want to alienate
one single possible supporter.
Quite so. Besides, it plays into the hands of people who love to
insist that ME is properly explained as insanity not as neurological
Wildaisy: Speaking as a citizen, not a lawyer,
and not giving a legal opinion (law license is inactive,
Fallacious argument, Patricia. Having had a law license, you
should know the law, and your being inactive doesn't free you from
acting according to such laws as you know.
Wildaisy: I don't know about other countries,
Maarten, but the U.S. has no objections to us giving blood. For
example, it probably would not be legal, and definitely would not
be ethical, for us to give blood in Canada or Australia
In the end, Patricia, you and I and anybody else, as long as we
are not insane, are responsible to ourselves. Personally - like my
family again - I don't care for laws I disagree with. However, one
of the rules of this forum is that it should not incite to illegal
acts. It doesn't specify a country, if I remember well. That's why I
gave it first, as argument, knowing you studied law.
In any case: It is not articles of the law that have the final say
so on what is moral or ethical. For no one, and indeed that defense
has also been rejected when convicting war criminals ("I only
followed orders, your honor. I didn't decide to gas and shoot
people: The Fuehrer did, your honor. I merely followed orders, as a
decent moral patriot should. I am innocent.")
Wildaisy: The ethical problem of giving a
disease to another person is obviated by notifying the agency
accepting the blood of what the precise situation is by giving
them the information packet containing the WPI research paper and
the CDC research paper.
No it is not. You may as well argue that handing a loaded gun to
someone you don't know with the warning "this is a loaded gun,
please be responsible with it" exonerates you from his pulling the
trigger, who knows in mock innocence ("I didn't believe this wild
woman, your honor").
Wildaisy: I've been nice for twenty years and
what has it gotten me? More double-dealing by the US government.
I'm ready to say "Listen to me or else." People with AIDS had to
do much worse than this to make their voices heard.
I think it likely I've been trough more difficult circumstances
the last 22 years (since I have been gassed for having courage, and
removed from university for being honest, while since two
parliamentary investigations have in effect underwritten all my
complaints about the awful truth both drugsdealing and education).
Nobody in Holland with any power or status wants as much as answer
my mails because they know I don't lie. Indeed, if I did I would
have been in jail long ago. They just don't care: It's not
their pain; I am not their family, nor in their church or political
party; I have no money to buy them; and besides, it is true
that whoever dares to effectively oppose drugsdealers in Amsterdam
gets killed, no policeman ever solving any such crimes, and that is
just that: If it is not about soccer or sex, only a small
minority of "democratic Dutchmen" will even be willing listen to you
for a few brief moments: This is a nation of Norms, Values
and Respect, and those are the things the democratic masses
Value and Respect: sex, drugs, rock and roll, and cheap ecstasy and
cocaine during Dance Festivals.
Human beings are not a race of semi-divinities: they are a race of
flawed primates, uniquely blessed and cursed with an understanding
of symbolic representation, often with hardly any morality beyond
conformism and following the leader, and capable of astonishing
willful cruelty, on the slightest provocation, for the most insane
of (political, religious, xenophobic) bullshit.
And please Patricia, what import does "Listen to me or else" have?
(And see my above story about the Amsterdam police. If they had
known Wessely or Van der Meer, they would have quoted them at the
time to me. And for them I couldn't be a real invalid, evidently,
for then I would have been really helped, wouldn't I. So it was all
my fault, undoubtedly. And thus for most with ME,
when faced with bureaucrats. As to the drugsdealers: If the mayor
permitted it, what does a true Dutchie do, other than joyfully buy
joints, and praise the mayor, for being so tolerant?)
Kati: Wildaisy, i am not a strong proponent of
disruption the blood banks quite yet.
Personally, I am not a strong proponent of disruption of the
blood banks. Period. And being such an arrogant bastard I'll tell
you why: The folks there once again are ordinary people,
whose moral pride consists in doing and believing as they
are told. Indeed, most probably mean well, and do well,
even if I have no high opinion of their intellects and morals,
albeit by US law they are Einstein's equals, and my father's and
grandfather's too, in moral courage and extreme will power resisting
Dr.Yes: I have been suggesting descending on
blood donation centers for a while, but I definitely always stop
short of advocating actually giving blood. I cannot support that;
I wouldn't want to increase the already substantial risk of
transmitting this disease to anyone who needs blood (and since
retroviruses can be vertically transmitted, a single transmission
of XMRV could potentially mean transmission to an entire family
tree over the generations).
Quite so, dear doc. That's what went through my mind as well. And
something else in this context, that holds also for Dr. Yes and
myself, and indeed applies to things like the socks project
I do NOT have the kind of health left to do ANY of these things. I
can walk but not more than a few hundred meters, which I need to do
my shopping, which nobody else does for me, because I have no family
in Holland, and because I have been so impolite about dearly beloved
mayors who really only help make some innocent mafiosi give Dutchmen
a pleasant high time.
With the disease I have in the manner I have it ALL practical action
is a OFF for me.
Besides, and regardless of diseases: The internet is FAR
more effective, also per unit of energy spent, than any physical
Dr. Yes: But I did suggest on YouTube once
that, as a matter of policy, any doctor who wants to argue that
ME/CFS is psychosomatic should first be required to receive a
blood infusion from an ME patient... and I believe I volunteered
for Trudi Chalder.
This I do agree with. And since the dear doc volunteered Trudi, I
kindly volunteer the dear doc's blood for the purpose of this Great
Experiment: It probably will do him and her a world of moral good
AND is real empirical science! A first for Trudy also: Finally
devirginized scientifically, with the kind manly help of the dear
doc, and without her giving blood but instead nicely getting it!
Kati: Don't get me wrong, I am not asking
Annette permission to do something that would jeopardize our
Quite so, Kati. I'd want to leave them uninvolved in patients'
actions anyway, unless they volunteer themselves, and ask them to
spend their energy on real science, that is so very necessary.
Kati: I was just wondering if it was a good
time to escalate pressures on the government or should we wait for
more studies to come in. Dr De Meirleir's study is due, the Sweden
study is due, and NIH, eventually, we don't know when.
Quite so again, Kati. This is also why I don't understand all
this depression and worrying, from a rational p.o.v.
Shebacat: We need to find a real in your face
way to raise awareness but not one that makes us guilty of putting
others ppl health at risk.
Indeed - and one that doesn't allow the oppostion to say: Look at
that! Clearly they are mad!
Wildaisy: Obviously, I am not suggesting that
anyone make a false statement to anyone else, especially the blood
banks. No, I am suggesting that we state the EXACT TRUTH of the
situation, and in fact, that we do so in writing.
Once again Patricia: If the Alter study stands and has been
published the US government HAS a real major health-problem. And if
they want to stonewall that nevertheless, the internet is the best
way to thwart that, especially for ill people.
Wildaisy: We, the people giving blood, would
be putting no one's health in jeopardy, except perhaps our own.
We would be telling the blood bank exactly what the situation is,
and giving them the written documents to reference this.
If anyone would be putting the health of people receiving blood in
jeopardy, it would be the CDC, not us.
Sorry: No. See the above point on handing out loaded guns to
random people, with fair warning about the danger of loaded guns.
Wildaisy: I have watched my friends die of
this illness while the people at the CDC continued to say it was
psychological. I am tired of being discounted. If it takes
dramatic action to get some notice to this situation, then I am
ready for dramatic action.
These people have stolen my life, what can they do to me that is
worse than what they have already done?
about milleniums of man's inhumanity to man,
I'd say. And look into some Amnesty materials, to find out what has
been done to prisoners, many innocent of any crime. Believe me:
MUCH worse things can happen to you than have
happened to you or others so far.
Rrrr: I don't suggest actually going into the
blood banks, but just demonstrating outside of them in our
pajamas, bunny slippers and with signs that warn about the blood
My very safe guess is (1) you'll be called
zanies by the small minority politer kind of people, and insane
idiots by the rest (for they don't know 1/10.000 part of
what you know about ME, and don't care to know either, having a life
and problems of their own, thank you kindly) while (2) the
halfway smart ones will ask: Pray dearie in your silly outfit: How
come you can be here at all, if you are as ill as you say you are?!
Once again: I CANNOT go out and demonstrate physically. Period. I am
really ill. Even if I could, I probably won't risk it, because of
what I think about the media and average intelligence and morality
of people and because of the risk of getting too PEM'd for months to
be able to care for myself as minimalisticaly as I am forced to
Andrew: I believe we have a disease that can
be passed on via blood transmission. I do not want to give this
illness to other people. So I think it would be immoral for me to
give blood and risk the injury of an innocent person.
Quite so. Indeed, I generally tell medical people that I have ME,
that may be mildly contagious, and is a disease I wish upon very
few. Usually I am initially answered as if I am an idiot who doesn't
know medicine, but since I am verbally very able, and also quite
capable of being very condescending while seeming to be very polite,
sometimes such persons take the trouble to consult a few references.
My recent dentists are one example, and were considerably less
dismissive after he had read some I recommended, and indeed were
themselves fairly smart guys (as happens less and less these
days, also with medical people, because 50% of Western folks are now
considered fit to study in a university, so as to get a diploma on
the strength of which they can abuse others for good pay:
That's part of the reasons so many doctors and psychologists are
such frightful incompetents the last decades.).
Wildaisy: All these demonstrations sound
wonderful, but I wonder how many of us are really in shape to do
that? The only way that sort of demonstration works is if you
have a lot of people there. I doubt you'd get six people.
Right on, Patricia. Besides of which large public demonstrations
of people who say they are too ill to work seems a bit
contradictory. (I need no lectures on stages of illness. I know. I
am not concerned with that. I am concerned with predictable
Wildaisy: On the other hand, if six people in
the ENTIRE WORLD gave blood under the could circumstances I have
described and put the whole thing on Youtube, it could create
quite a stir. The politicians and media people who have been
refusing to speak to me for the past week might decide it's time
to speak to us and hear our stories.
How do you know? All I can see here is wishful thinking.
Also, you forget how little nearly everyone without ME knows what it
is really like (even if one knows what it is like to be ill, most
don't know what it is like to be ill for decades, let alone being
ill for decades while being discriminated, lied about, manipulated
and refused all benefits).
And you forget that "We all have the strength to bear other people's
pains and miseries" (Rochefoucauld), if only because we each and all
only know our own feelings, pains and miseries for what they do feel
and appear like, and must guess about those of ALL
others, with or without relevant knowledge, with or without empathy,
concern or interest. (This is one other reason why Wessely is such a
fraud: Others mental lives are hidden and mostly unexplained by
present science. Psychiatrists just CANNOT have the knowledge of
another's experiences they usually pretend to.)
Most people who know I am ill, and generally accept I am ill because
I am a psychologist and can talk very well and know a lot more of
science than they do, if asked admit gladly that
(as former friends also told me)
"o, it's really not my problem, you see - o and I
wish you Strength! Bye, bye!"
- for that namely is the Dutch dismissal for people suffering:
"Sterkte!", while smiling happily as if having performed a very
difficult heroic deed, and having shown the most moral empathy and
Indeed, the majority truly believe this about
themselves - that having wished me strength and ambled off,
they performed most morally and excellently. And yes:
That's indeed also what they learn in schools these days:
Pretend verbal respect to anyone, and walk away, especially if you
see them drown, perish, or beaten up, for that would be
FAR too risky for a sound and sane Dutchman to do anything about, as
the democratic majority of Dutchmen widely agree, in moral practice
and in moral theory.
Wildaisy: Your choice of advocacy is yours,
and if you choose to demonstrate outside blood centers or CDC,
that is your decision. My decision is that something dramatic is
demanded because NOBODY IS WATCHING WHAT THEY ARE DOING TO US.
Nobody CARES! Who do you think is going to go on Youtube to watch
demonstrations of people carrying signs outside a building?
Right, you got it. And why would they embrace
you if you say you want to infect the US-population?! Or praise your
bright mind for wishing to do that - while if the sofar not
published positive study stands and is published, the US-population
will be known to be running serious risks?
Wildaisy: I am open to suggestion, but
something real and something that demands attention needs to be
done. We need something that is not "business as usual." We need
something that grabs people by the throat and says to them,
"Listen to me!"
Sorry Patricia: I am not among those "We". I am willing to grab
Mark, Bob, Martley, Jody, Kurt, Cort and Lansbergen by the throat,
if I can get close enough to them, but that is because I
have seen they don't even stoop at anti-semitism and obvious verbal
sadism against ill people, and personally I am one who
doesn't get afraid but who gets angry. Idem with drugsdealers and
bureaucrats I have personally addressed several times politely, and
who must know that the laws have been broken
against me and that I have a right - and indeed have a civic duty of
any citizen! - to insist on their maintenance or
else on a legal persecution of those who criminally choose not to
maintain the law.
But that's my personal limit, and I wouldn't kill, if not treated or
seriously threatened with violence, but much would like to put their
faces with swastikas on their foreheads on my site and say publicly:
"These people are despicable fascists and terrorists, who stoop at
no beastliness to get their desires satisfied. This is a public
warning to avoid them; throw them out of any ethical or scientific
project; fear them as public liars; and buy guns if you are so
unfortunate as to have depend on them for anything, especially
protection of your person, property, health or interests, or must
tolerate them in your environment, and want to see justice done in a
world where only the rich and famous may confidently expect justice
is done for them."
Polly: "Morally I could not go give blood
knowing that I probably have some nasty virus lurking there ."
Quite so - and see Dr. Yes and my response to him.
Polly: "So I really wouldnt want anyone to put
anyone in the kind of position I am in . As living with a ticking
time bomb for 22 years is not a pleasant experience . Yeah im
probably just unlucky but who knows , there are still folk over
here being diagnosed with mad cow disease (CJD) and dying from it"
Right again. I did not have one percent of the life and
opportunities and career I would have made had I not fallen ill 32
years ago with ME, and I have had rather a lot of pain since my ME
worsened much as result of 4 years of terror by drugsmafiosi in
Amsterdam, who also - with other cafes - didn't allow me to sleep
for more than 4-5 hours in one go on any day, if the pain allowed
But those who indulge in extreme talking: Read some
concentration camp literature, with photographs; read some Amnesty
literature on torture in the world; and make up your own mind
whether you've gone through anything like that (and expect
a very angry response from me, if you insist you
did: Better first pull a few of your own nails, to know what you're
talking about. My father tried to commit suicide after having been
interrogated by the SS, for fear he couldn't stand more of it and
break. You suffered much, if you have decades of ME, but don't
wallow in it, please: Far worse things have happened to some.)
Polly: The problem we have is the fact that so
many of us are too sick to take part in owt like this . The
journey just to the event would be too much . I will go put my
thinking cap on . whatever we do it has to be legal , moral and
ethically correct. We cannot afford to be accused of being
dangerous psychopathic nutcases which is what would happen if we
actually gave blood.Also I dont fancy spending time in the nick ,
theres too much I want to do once im well enough I aint gonna
spend that time stuck 23hrs a day behind bars .
Quite so once more, Polly. And my own thinking
cap says, somewhat satirically, but Andrew really believes those
things, and has an infinity of bliss waiting for him (I would think,
having read Aquinas and Calvin myself):
Thank the dear Lord (in which I don't believe, giving up that
infinity of promised bliss) for the internet:
People with ME are in a MUCH better position to argue their
own case and insist on their own rights, including those in the
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which I can prove
have been many times broken in my case, in Amsterdam.
Use that means, and learn to use it well. And
support real science and real scientists, for the solution in the
end must come from them, while the required push to get it widely
publicly discussed is probably mostly up to the patients, what with
-- intermission: There are more posts. I agree with Mithriel. As to
rrr: but, Mithriel, don't we risk this
perception no matter how we protest (i.e. make ourselves visible)?
i think it is a risk we need to take. we need to have SOME kind of
public protest or demonstration, finally, after decades of being
Sorry, but I get very sick of this "we, we need, us, our, we
must, our community" etc. SPEAK FOR YOURSELF.
And mind you: I have been doing 32 years of protesting now,
not only against my maltreatment while being ill,
but also - and mostly, and firstly - against the decline of
civilization, the moronification of education, the politication and
stupification of universities, and against the illegal sale of drugs
from the house where I lived. I have NOT indulged in decades
of being silent.
And while I write much better than most, and am a lot smarter and
learned than most, all I got by that was an enormous amount
of personal discrimination.
Also, I dared to take risks very few people dare take. I don't need
any public acclaim for that (MUCH rather not: it
might provoke me to quote theology on man's flawed nature), if only
because I think it is beyond most, just as I can't play chess like a
grandmaster, but could you PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE save on the "We"
and the silly ideas for activism that will make most of you seem to
be insane drama queens, as Mithriel rightly remarked?
P.S. To return to my personal case, speaking for me: I want to find
Lansbergen; I do not want to be on one forum with such a despicable
parody of a human being. Can "we" now settle whether "we" want this
despicable fascist twat hanging about here, or what?
I do not thole fascistic anti-semitism against me, on the pretext
that I am not allowed to speak about Dutch fascist collaboration,
while Lansbergen the sadist knew my family background. You tried to
destroy me, Lansbergen: OK... I want you physically opposite me, and
be a hero or heroine, after your full capacity. You'll give me your
full personal excuses and allow you behaved like a secret fascist
informer because you are that poor quality of person, or I am going
after you till I have you in my hands.
And Patricia: I INSIST on the IP of this person. I want to persecute
it till hell. It wanted to insult me, my family, what I dared, what
I wrote, what my family dared, and over 100.000 murdered Dutchmen,
murdered because of their supposed "race".
And others: Please realize that for ME, who does have
courage and brains and independent individuality, having ME has
meant being gassed, being thrown from university three times, being
physically attacked, being threatened with murder by mafia-pros,
being forced to live in a totally sick country where local fascists
pull 1/5th of the vote, while frothing at their fascistic mouths if
one dares to refer to their plans of putting 20 million Europeans
"in camps", because of their religion, and being forced to politely
put up with obvious sadists like Mark, Kurt, Bob and this
unutterable human piece of decrepit shit that calls itself
Lansbergen and stems from hell if the Dutch calvinists or catholics
happen to be right after all.
ALL of that happened because I could not escape neither the house
nor the country for being ill; and because I chose to speak the
truth as I saw it; and I spoke to speak up for the maintenance of
such laws as held and hold formally where I live, and for such
standards of science and education I know to be possible and
essential for the maintenance or creation of high civilization.
I have NOT laid passively in bed for 30 years. I risked my
life and what remained of my health to stand up in public to speak
about the decline of civilization and education; the dangers of
protecting the mafia by governmental policy (for 4 decades, times
billions of illegal profits each year); and my personal dangers of
being threatened with murder after having been gassed and barely
survived that. I have now 22 years of nearly
constant pain and very much aggrevated ME for having the sheer
courage of protesting to the municipal authorities that this ill son
of admitted and knighted heroes of the Amsterdam resistance in WW II
was gassed and threatened with murder after daring to protest this
gassing, having been warned credibly with murder by armed
THAT is what "having ME" involved for me.
I am now getting quite sick of all manner of suddenly radicalized
patients dreaming up silly plans of silly actions while speaking for
me, abusing pronouns.
Also I am getting thoroughly sick of being on a list on which nobody
seems to object to the presence of fascist informers, or else
extremely cowardly quite sadistical obvious impostures, while
indulging for weeks in all manner of chitchat without coming to any
decent plans on how to set up a forum where the capable people are
not speared by sadistic pros protecting their careers and interests,
while lying about being ill and o so very in need of support and
respect, and where there are now clear proposals to do illegal
I think most of you are pipe-dreaming and posturing about activism
outside the internet, I am very sorry to say. I have met
very few truly courageous people in my life, but I happen
to be born from them. Also, I have personally known more genuine
resistance heroes than anyone on any ME-forum: Don't give me any
bullshit that these persons are the equals or equivalents of their
torturers, as is the common approved way in Holland and on PR-F,
where everybody is socially forced to pretend to respect everybody
as spineless as himself or herself. You KNOW, each and all
of you, that you do NOT respect or love or like or admire most as
you respect or love or like or admire a precious few for you. So
don't LIE about it, levelling everyone to the level of the majority
of dumboes and cowards - which they can't help, for not
having born with other capacities, but which they nevertheless are,
as human history shows so clearly, if only people would read it (and
I mean real historians, like Gibbon or Burckhardt, not your po-mo
media-savvy sort of modern "historian").
I have also met very few truly intelligent people
in my life. Alas.
Could "we" now PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE return to how "we" can use the
internet to reach "our" goals, instead of using the very little
energy most of "us" have, or claim to have, on something realistic
and on the safe side of the law? Those who want to involve
themselves in real heroics can email me, as the son and grandson of
two convicted political terrorists - but do NOT expect an
Nearly all the would be revolutionaries I have seen in my life -
untold tenthousands if not hundredthousands, in demonstrations,
occupations, squattings, actions etc. - including World-famous
Student Leaders, were total wimps, complete phony actors,
utterly hollow men and women, compared to the persons I
have known who did oppose the SS while this was
mortally dangerous, including torture, quite a few of them who were
"jewish bolshevists" in SS-speak, that is, atheist communists from a
supposedly inferior race (that Lansbergen seems to really believe IS
inferior, and certainly suggested, ambiguously like a pro-Wesselyan:
Where ARE you, you mock-heroic twat?!).
Moral: Forget being an action-hero! A real gift for
heroics is as little in most people as a real gift for mathematics
or music. I deplore that but I do not hold people responsible for
their genes. But don't pretend to gifts you know or should know you
haven't and don't call on what is or soon will be a public forum for
illegal heroics hardly anyone on this list has the health for, and
only a very, very, very small minority has the requisite talents for
- as shown by the actual numbers of actual resistance people in WW
II: Six times more Dutchmen went into the Dutch SS
than went into resistance, while evidently over
100.000 human beings, more than 1% of the Dutch population then,
were razziaed, beaten up, denigrated, forced to walk with a star,
and depicted as subhumans.
And IF you really want action, think Martin Luther
King - but don't believe for one heartbeat that you are his
intellectual or moral equal. That is: Think non-violently;
think legally; think morally; make your case as well as you can on
the internet. Be as angry and satirical as you please or
dare in words and pictures, but do NOT call for illegal actions, and
do NOT physically threaten people, not even indirectly, by adding
poison to blood transfusion and blaming the bureacrats for not
And first piece together the foundations of a GOOD forum, instead of
a mere chitchat opportunity for ill people; then decide on what
GOALS a forum like this should further; and then by what MEANS these
are best brought about.
I suggest The Daily ME, but that too treacled down the emotions and
the needs and the depression and the chitchat and what not... I
mean: Most of you say you are intelligent educated people, and
indeed most you are. Please be rational and reasonable, instead of
merely social and cosy, or up in arms with dreams about public
actions most of you cannot have the health to even attend, let alone
carry the consequences of a few days in jail, or a courtcase.
Finally, if this list persist in this sort of thing, I am definitely
off, by any name also, and will not be shy of publicly saying why
Nobody answered this with any comment, until after 10 or 12
Lansbergen did, with precisely the same post as in May, presumably to
show that Lansbergens are totally beyond retribution and completely
protected by Administrators and Moderators of ME-forums, as cited
yesterday, but with the addition that all the dear lady wrote was:
Being a most patient man under provocation, but also a very good
hater (as one may not be in Holland, by governental order with
parliamentarian acclaim), I sat back and waited to see what happened.
Well, more answers happened as if I had not written anything, and as
if Lansbergen wrote something totally justified and fair.
After which point I had enough, and pulled all my posts and myself
from ME-F, for many more reasons than are apparent here, that I may
take up with tomorrow's date.
But once you decide as a person or a group to react to criminals
with crimes, the one moral advantage you have totally evaporates, and
besides it plays completely in the hands of the Reevesians and
Wesselyians, who would LOVE to see a group of patients they could get
portrayed as desperate mad terrorists.
Am I not very angry then myself? Yes, I am, but that is no reason
to be more foolish than one is, especially if the scientific arguments
for one's defense seem to have been found for a good part, even if
they are repressed for the moment, quite unwisely for a government
that should protect rather than deceive its electorate.
More on this tomorrow.