September 1, 2010


ME + me :  Aussie quashes Wessely + forums-blues

I continue being not well, and today just have some links, quotations and comments about the two subjects in the title:


1. Aussie quashes Wessely
2. Forums-blues

1. Aussie quashes Wessely

Personally, I am all for logical, scientific, rational argument, and also quite good in it, for which reason it would be nice if professor Simon Wessely would be willing to start a discussion with me, but then the chances of that are as close to zero as one can wish, realistically speaking.

Therefore it was quite nice to find the following link

which contains the text of an exchange of e-mails between a very smart Australian of 22, ill with ME/CFS since 5 years, and a student of astrophysics if not fallen ill, and professor Wessely, that took place in the beginning of August.

It must be supposed that professor Wessely - who for many years carefully avoided professor Hooper and Margaret Williams, for example - did answer the mail of the Australian (I read it all rapidly through, quite tired, and may have missed a location where the gender - as the phrase is - was settled, so I don't even know that, nor the person's name), because he felt that he could take on and defeat this aussie easily.

Not so - and to the contrary: As the aussie says, after doing it very well, very logically, with lots of relevant knowledge and references, and in detail:


I have now analysed every argument Professor Wessely has presented to me and every counter argument of Professor Wessely’s. Professor Wessely has cherry picked peripheral points that I mentioned in my letter to him and argued his position on these largely irrelevant points. As I have detailed above, his arguments are full of fallacies, inconsistencies, contradictions and largely a disregard for the scientific method. I believe I have successfully nullified all of Professor Wessely’s arguments, sometimes using multiple methods.

What is most striking in Professor Wessely’s letter is not what he has written but rather what he hasn’t written. In the previous letter I sent to Professor Wessely, I detailed over 20 independent arguments, each one singularly sufficient to falsify his CFS paradigm. Professor Wessely did not even attempt to argue back to a single one of these arguments.

Professor Wessely has argued irrelevant points that are peripheral to the topic at hand. I have demonstrated that even these arguments are flawed. His avoidance in responding or addressing my arguments further incriminates his CFS model. I therefore conclude that Professor Wessely’s CFS psychosomatic viewpoint is erroneous, unscientific and of no use to CFS patients suffering from CCC.

So.... if you care for real good logical argument and/or seeing professor Wessely thoroughly vanquished in argument, Conversing with Professor Simon Wessely, is the place to go to.

I strongly recommend it, and the only remark I have is that to follow and appreciate it properly and thoroughly you need to be smart and inclined to rational scientific argument - which may be asking too much from quite a few persons at present writing on ME-forums, which is my next topic.

2. Forums-blues

As I outlined yesterday in a note, I am not a member of either the PR-F nor the ME-F forums, although I have been a member of each, though not at the same time. My nominal reason to write that note yesterday was that moderator Jane Clout of ME-F lied about me and about ME-F on PR-F, which I take exception to, as I do to her meddlesome person, if only for reasons of self-interest: I do not want spokeswomen like Jane Clout speaking for patients with my disease, because she lacks the capacities or the desires to do that well, and because I do not want to be removed by such a one from a forum she has not the  capacity (or wish) for to moderate anyway, and then lied about in public as if that forum removed no one.

I am not willing to write a lot about it now (stupidity knows no cure), so I just give some commented references to what I wrote earlier about the forums and my unhappiness with how they are run:

  • Respectfully, from the trolls on the Phoenix Forums or May 5

    (On getting one's foreskin thrown into one's face on the National Day commemorating the 65th year of the end of WW II, by a moderator of
    PR-F and a trolling assistant of Bleijenberg/Van der Meer, warmly welcomed and protected on both PR-F and ME-F, with only the desires of Bleijenberg's
    (*) as reason for my anti-semitic discrimination, that I will wish to take up in Holland and Nijmegen University.)
  • On the human predicament

    (On the background for 25 centuries of war between humans and persecutions of humans by human - homo homini lupus, in the end because of stupidity, egoism and conformism.)
  • What the real me thinks about Animal Forum - 2

    (I explain things on a polite rational level - incidentally, in my experience of 60 years of life not appropriate with most persons, since it it takes too much, or is incompatible with their egoism, I take it.)
  • How respect came into the world

    (On the reasons why the average - Our Democratic Silent Majority In Our Community - likes to level anybody unlike themselves to a level as low or lower than they are on.)
  • Sweet relief: The Phoenix Forums' Moderators

    (On the reasons why I left PR-F on May 23, 2010: Moderators mistreating ill people as if this is a matter of course.)
  • The Phoenix Forums: Briefly and courteously, with due respect

    (My reasons for leaving and pulling all my posts summarized.)
  • "Pour encourager les autres"

    (About the banishment of Flybro in May from PR-F, that surprisingly few members of PR-F spoke up against, although quite a few that then failed to speak up at present are raving and ranting about PR-F on ME-F - without ever having taken the trouble themselves, in May, June or July, to do anything about laying good foundations, rules and plans for a good forum on ME-F.)
  • ME + me:   Forums news...

    (My optimistic first mentioning of the ME-F forum, then administrated by _Kim_ and CFS_since_1998. The last liar seems to have pestered _Kim_ away between May 28 and June 5 and should be removed as admin as a total incompetent.)
  • Where are MM's posts on Phoenix Rising?

    (I pulled my posts when I left PR-F, and put them on my own site. The link provides the link, including the remark that they still need some formatting.)
  • Should I've been a comedian? + Political Correctness

    (Links to Bill Maher and an explanation of PC.)
  • The tragi-comical human fundamental problem

    (Links to George Carlin and more about the fundamental human problem - Fun!)
  • On CDC-"science"

    (This explains my subject, and shows awol in action, who has quite a few bits missing between her ears, it since turned out, but possibly for that very reason is admired by the majority of the lesser gifted.)

  • On infecting and storming blood banks

    (On Grandmother Pamela Carter's pretensions to being A Revolutionary c.q. a few of my rebuttals to her desire to attempt to poison the US bloodsupply and/or to attack bloodbanks allover the world. This woman is still administrator of ME-F, and should not be there. Since Bleijenberg's
    , who seems to have arrived very early on ME-F by the administrators express personal invitation (!!), was again allowed by Master Since and Mistress Particia to throw my foreskin in my face, and as both refused to answer me about this unutterable piece of Dutch trolling shit, I removed my posts from ME-F, but stayed on as Manuel, with consent from Master Since).

  • Unsere ME-Fuehrerinnen und ME-Fuehrers

    (On Eric_Johnson_from_I&I's totally insane attempts to write out looooong posts on ME-F defending the Bill Reeves / Simon Wessely thesis that CFS = neurasthenia: Hardly had the shit appeared, or Awol embraced it verbally,
    and as soon as I protested ON MY OWN SITE I was totally removed from ME-F, where ever since the lie is perpetrated - by Jane Clout - that people are not banned. The insane posts are still on ME-F, to the best of my knowledge:
    CFS since 1998 and Patricia Carter aka Wildaisy rather push the CDC-fraudulence of the 1980-ies and 1990-ies, in its most obnoxious form also, by a clearly disturbed person also, on their ME-F, rather than the "Good Science" they claim they further.)

  • On a sad misunderstanding of me

    (A rather ironic but polite letter to CFS since 1998 and Patricia Carter aka Wildaisy about their crazy decision to lock me out of all access to ME-F: Never answered. The gentleman and lady are even on the level of everyday common politeness rather absent or offensive than responsible persons.)
  • Animal Forum - 3: Slaughterhouse 11

    (A summary of who by the date of August 4 had been removed, cowed, hunted away or banned from ME-F.)

  • Bloody stupid hysteria + lying

    (I explain once more why attacking blood banks or giving blood while one has ME/CFS is a bad idea, with some added explanations on LP.)

Sofar for the commented summary. Now here is something that evolved the last few days on PR-F.

The post consists in fact of three: One large quoted one by Dreambirdie, who explains on PR-F why she left ME-F; a sentence or two by the poster, Impish; followed by a quote from Flex on ME-F. I quote the post as I found it on PR-F, but inserted the writers:

 Originally Posted by Dreambirdie

I was once, albeit very temporarily, a member of the other forum, which I refer to as THE CORT BASHING FORUM (CBF) or THE "I HATE CORT" FORUM. As others have attested to, a BIG part of that other forum's agenda has to do with criticizing and attacking Cort and his PR forum. In fact, when I was on the CBF, I repeatedly heard insulting, derogatory, accusatory, and extremely critical remarks being dished out ad nauseum about Cort, both in posts and in chat... some of which were coming from people that I really liked and was shocked to be witness to.  These were not just disagreements of opinion, and they were not just a few incidents of Cort bashing that I experienced, but an ongoing angry rant, based on a very twisted (and rather paranoid) philosophy that Cort was somehow engaged in undermining the cause of CFS with his allegedly pro-CAA, pro-psych theory, and anti-science agenda. According to some of these Cort bashers, Cort has been demonized as the ANTI-CHRIST of the online CFS community. And they of course are the Saviors, who have come to rescue "the GOOD SCIENCE" from his clutches, and to set him straight about just how "wrong and bad" he really is. I know it sounds WAY over the top, but I have to tell you that the attitude of certain people on that CBF is really THAT extreme... And if you disagree too openly with that "anti-Cort attitude," if you say something that might imply that "Cort is really not such a bad guy," then you will be under suspicion as a spy for the PR forum. Unfortunately I am NOT making this up.

I was personally attacked by one of the CBF's administrators (Wildaisy), because I chose to put a link at the end of my CFS video to the PR forum, instead of the CBF. It was considered a horrible "slight," an act of betrayal to "side with Cort," (the enemy), and my reasoning (the fact that there is more information and more research articles available here on PR) was attacked and dismissed by Wildaisy as being "bullshit." That hostile attack is what ultimately led me to quit the CBF for good.

This kind of black and white thinking, you-are-either-with-us-or-against-us attitude is so rampant on that other forum that it dominates the vibe there. And I do not believe it will ever change, mainly because there is no willingness on the part of the main instigators to self-reflect or be accountable for any of their ridiculously hostile behavior. In fact this anti-Cort contingent feels absolutely justified in their "cause" of proving Cort wrong, no matter what it takes to do so, and they won't stop until their mission is accomplished.

What concerns and bothers me (a lot) is how much of that viciously antagonistic anti-Cort and anti-PR rhetoric is being allowed on this forum. I feel that it is harmful to some of the very sick and sensitive people here to have to be subjected to the overtly nasty energy that is being brought in here... disguised in the Trojan horse of "we-are-just-disagreeing-with-your-opinion." If this was my forum I would have booted their butts out of here and bolted the door behind them. But it isn't my forum, so all I can do is express how I feel, and encourage the mod's here to set firmer boundaries on bad behavior and to be less tolerant of those who seem to have nothing but bad intentions.

Well put. I am erasing my account from there.

Here is what they are planning on doing next... It really makes me saddened for them. If they have so little energy why can't they devote it to something that generates more value towards the common goal of getting a cure for CFS.

Flex (quoted by Impish from ME-F):
So here is what we do!!!

We put together all these dubious issues from the freeprisoner story http://www.mecfsforums.com/index.php...8.html#msg7938 and her offer of £10,000 to Cort to go non profit, the Mike Dessin story http://mirrorsandlights.wordpress.com/ the amygdala Gupta training programme, the LP pushing, issues on board member (who are they), financial contributors, etc CT etc. A huge post is is posted here in a "who is Cort Johnson thread". When it is complete enough we move the post over to PR. We can put a link to the thread here so that if it is closed down on PR it can continue over here and Cort and the pussy cat woman can not control the argument by either shutting it down, detracting from points or editing.

There is no point arguing with Cort on PR post by post, we need to hit him and his forum members with one massive post full of questions that tarnishes his reputation just like he tries to do to the WPI. The difference will be with us we will be asking legitimate questions. They say s**t sticks don't they.

If he is claiming to act in the public interest on ME then he should be questioned thoroughly on burning questions about himself.

Example questions:

1) who is the mystery donor to your non profit status.

2) would you or have you at any time received any financial contributions from the CAA or the CDC

3) what is the maximum you would pay yourself.

4) do you ever see yourself and your organisation representing people with purely psychological illnesses therefore drawing a salary from a non profit for non biological causes

5) why has he been photographed with psychiatrist Peter White GET/CBT proponent who contributed to the CAA appalling advise pamphlet on ME.

6) Does he believe his own illness to be of psychological or biological origin.

7) how does he check out the validity of the cure stories he publishes on the forum like the LP and Mike Dessin story and how will he do so now that he is receiving financial donations from (which) sources that may have a conflict of interest now or in the future and may even prove to be fraudulent.

8. how will he change the forum rules around "not questioning another members diagnosis or recovery claims " when the above conflict of interest issue could in the future, or may have already been abused by commercial interests. This is now even more crucial as he is asking forum members for donations as well as receiving donations from so far unnamed other sources.

Ah well. After that, there was - among a lot more - a post by Jane Clout aka Jace - a selfstyled "tale of two forums", not honest but manipulative; a post by the owner of PR-F Cort Johnson giving answers to the above questions; a post by Koan giving her version of the reasons for having to ME-forums; and a post by Adam that forgets that others can see what's on ME-F, much of which does not conform to Adam's "I don't think anyone on the other forum thinks PR is a bad place".

P.S.  That's more or less were it stands today, though I have not worked into the text  rather a lot from ME-F that struck me mostly as childish, that also does not at all square with what Jace, Koan and Adam claimed about ME-F on PR-F.

Now... what do I think of it? That the persons on ME-F who were somebody on PR-F - because they could and did write, and made sense - stand up to their incompetent administrators; remove them - buy them out, if necessary: the fair price can't be high -for a better set of admins and moderators, and try to start it again, this time by doing what was the original intent by the beginning of June: Lay the foundations for a good set of rules, ends and regulations for a good forum for and by patients with ME, predominantly interested in furthering biomedical research into ME, and try again. It will be necessary also to remove some of the loudmouths and wackos, but then these can roll their own forums or sites, instead of abusing others on sites they did not create themselves, for no other clear purpose that I can see, as a psychologist with 32 years of ME, by medical attestation also, than the joys of abusing others while denying on does it. (**)

O, and for what it is worth: I do not accept either Dreambirdie's, Koan's, Jace's or Adam's versions of what ME-F is like, though I am quite certain Dreambirdie, Koan, and Adam each mean well, are intelligent, and are no trolls at all. Neither Dreambirdie's angry version nor mother Hubbard Jace's account of ME-F is true, and both are mostly misleading in my view.

The pity is that on the moment there is quite an amount of real talent with real ME effectively locked in on ME-F by ranting and ravings of especially Wildaisy aka Pamela Carter, Master Since aka CFS_since_1998 aka the man too cowardly to own up to a name, and Awol, V99 and a handful of other trolls or disturbed persons.

Maybe it's about time for a better forum or something new... of which more later, here.

P.P.S. It may be I have to stop Nederlog for a while. The reason is that I am physically not well at all. I don't know yet, but if there is no Nederlog, now you know the reason.


As to ME/CFS (that I prefer to call ME):

1. Anthony Komaroff

Ten discoveries about the biology of CFS (pdf)

3. Hillary Johnson

The Why

4. Consensus (many M.D.s) Canadian Consensus Government Report on ME (pdf)
5. Eleanor Stein

Clinical Guidelines for Psychiatrists (pdf)

6. William Clifford The Ethics of Belief
7. Paul Lutus

Is Psychology a Science?

8. Malcolm Hooper Magical Medicine (pdf)

Short descriptions:

1. Ten reasons why ME/CFS is a real disease by a professor of medicine of Harvard.
2. Long essay by a professor emeritus of medical chemistry about maltreatment of ME.
3. Explanation of what's happening around ME by an investigative journalist.
4. Report to Canadian Government on ME, by many medical experts.
5. Advice to psychiatrist by a psychiatrist who understands ME is an organic disease
6. English mathematical genius on one's responsibilities in the matter of one's beliefs:
   "it is wrong always, everywhere, and for anyone, to believe anything upon
     insufficient evidence
7. A space- and computer-scientist takes a look at psychology.
8. Malcolm Hooper puts things together status 2010.

    "Ah me! alas, pain, pain ever, forever!

No change, no pause, no hope! Yet I endure.
I ask the Earth, have not the mountains felt?
I ask yon Heaven, the all-beholding Sun,
Has it not seen? The Sea, in storm or calm,
Heaven's ever-changing Shadow, spread below,
Have its deaf waves not heard my agony?
Ah me! alas, pain, pain ever, forever!
     - (Shelley, "Prometheus Unbound") 

    "It was from this time that I developed my way of judging the Chinese by dividing them into two kinds: one humane and one not. "
     - (Jung Chang)


See also: ME -Documentation and ME - Resources

P.P.S. ME - Resources needs is a Work In Progress that hasn't progressed today.

(*) That's what it very probably is, my own investigations have since shown. This is definitely a topic I will return to, as I found the whole modus operandi fascistic, and I want the persons responsible exposed publicly, and punished.

(**) For that may well be the reason for Awol's, Master Eric's and some others' mindsets - if they are not trolls. I am quite willing to believe or accept that if they are not trolls, they may not be conscious, for the most part, of their own manipulative rudeness and gross impertinence. But as is, the handful of nutters on ME-F indeed have taken over that forum, and could do so because its administrators and moderators are incompetent, if not trolls themselves.

And I find the plans and ideas of both Patricia Carter aka Wildaisy about attacking blood banks and the ravings of Master Eric the neurotic Nietzschean thoroughly disturbed.

But then the presently active members of ME-F rather dance to tunes of ratcatchers than use their own brains rationally. As has happened so often in human history...

Maarten Maartensz

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