a`\ 

Nederlog

 

May 25, 2010

 

ME + me: Sweet relief: The Phoenix Forums' Moderators

 

   "It is pleasant to have command, observed Sancho Panza, even over a flock of sheep..."
    -- The Book of Merlyn


I wrote before

I continue being not well and this is just a very short piece to register that all my posts to the Phoenix Forums are now on my site, albeit it in need of some better editing:

Incidentally, this constitutes the effort of 17 days of work (and 4 MB of texts spread over 380 files) for it was not easy with my presently lousy health.

I am OFF the Phoenix Forums.

I asked for that on May 22, during a quite shameful squabble initiated by the moderators, in which I was not involved at all, but is in fact my position since May 5, when a moderator threw my foreskin in my face after setting me up that way by careful lying and posturing, and after Cort Johnson and other moderators bravely had looked the other way, and saw no evil, heard no evil, and spoke no evil:

(Moderator Mark)

Also, I had some strange thoughts yesterday...we should probably discuss circumcision and the potential uses of what has been removed - privately, preferably...a sore point...

All the best,

Mark

 

See me+ME: MEtaMethical Meditation where my take of this manner of moderation is outlined.


Now as to the squabble on moderation on the Phoenix Forums I did not at all take part in that make it quite clear why I do not want to take part in a Forum that is thus moderated by those moderators and also do not want my name and posts associated with it (although the above is the main reason for my insistence on having my name and posts removed).

Originally I had started comments on the following quotations of posts, but I have chosen to simply repeat it as I copied it and have suppressed virtually all comments but for a few of a purely factual or linguistic nature, and

What follows can be used as an example of quite a lot of things, social processes, defining the situation, abuse of powers, groupthinking, Zimbardo and the Stanford Prisoner Experiment, and more, but having said that I suppress my comments and just quote with the name of the writer of the post and some other details added.

Minimally, it is a star example of how not to moderate and the stars are the moderators of the Phoenix Forums, most prominently - and I quote from her very own website:

These are the musings of Jody Smith, presently recovering from 17 years of Chronic Fatigue Syndrome. Not an easy illness to come back from.

But it can be done. And I’m doing it.

Wingin’ it as I go forward.

Welcome to my world.

Here she announces a changes in moderating on the Phoenix Forums on the thread about moderating out of the blue on May 23, on page 5 of the thread, after this last message on May 1:

(Moderator Jody - #48)
Quote Originally Posted by starryeyes View Post
Jody, thank you very much for all you do here. I've always found you to be fair-minded and impartial when dealing with contentious issues here. You're superhuman! I think your avatar gives you that power.

Very sweet of you starryeyes.

In all honesty though, I don't do that much around here. But I will do the polite thing and accept the praise. Wouldn't want to make you feel bad.

Yes, my avatar gives me giant powers -- due to the fact that it is a giant face (at least on the video). I have deliberately made it so to strike awe into the hearts of all who can see the giant face.


May 23, out of the blue:

(Moderator Jody - #49)

Some of you may notice a change in moderating methods in the next while. Most of you will likely not notice any difference at all, as most of you are very respectful of each other in threads.

We usually have a couple of hot threads that raise hackles in all directions and often we have been reluctant to have to impose restrictions, hoping I guess that things will straighten out on their own. But we have come to an end with that policy for the simple reason that it doesn't work.

There's a change coming. The mods have been informed that if they think a thread needs locking, they can lock it. If they think someone needs a caution about their behaviour, we trust their judgment and we will back them. If they think someone needs a suspension for a few days, we're okay with that.

So we are going to be more insistent with people who are disrespecting other posters. It is not a matter of taking sides on a question. It is a matter of mandating that people be polite and courteous to others.

As I said most of you are already doing that. Some of you usually do that and occasionally lose your cool. And then some others seem to bring controversy and friction with them wherever they go.

And no, I'm not going to name names. If you're wondering if it's you ... it's probably not. You're probably too conscientious to be causing flak.

 

 

(Flybro, senior member - #50)

what utter crap

 

(Wildaisy, member - #54)
 

It is so sad what is happening to PR. I have seen it coming for a long time--since Cold-Tears was punished, since Aftermath left, since Cort recruited a stable of watchers to make sure we did not step over the newest invisible and unannounced line of the day. Still, it is sad. This has been a great forum.

Don't you realize that you cannot keep a group of highly intelligent, knowledgeable, creative and articulate people together here unless you let them speak in the way which they find most comfortable? This IS the internet, you know. We are not speaking at the Church Tea. I think most of us anticipate that we are all adults here, we are not expecting children's ideas or chldren's language.

 

Thumbs down

StarryEyes, senior member - #55

I keep up with the forums fairly well and I've never seen a thread that I think should be locked. I've seen arbitrary comments made by some moderators who shall remain nameless and I've thought they were out of line and also being manipulative about wanting to control members here by threatening to close threads or change forum rules because they're losing arguments.

What a drag that many members here are feeling censored. There's obviously something wrong when a large number of people feel unfairly maligned, as many people here do. Locking threads is just a form of control by some mods who disagree with members.

aftermath said he left because of the moderating here. Since he built this forum, this has obviously been a major problem for a long time. A lot of people feel strongly about this issue here and they make good points about what they're experiencing and seeing happen to other members. I hope the admins here will see the light before there's a mass exodus from PR.

 

 

(Moderator Martlet - #56, partially quoted summary)

There is now a Forum Rules link posted at the bottom of each forum page. It is expected that when you join this forum, you agree to abide by these rules. (Please register your comments to these rules in an open thread on the Forum rules.)

In the interest of creating a safe and productive venue for discussion we're making some rules explicit. We realize that these Forums deal with topics of great import to all of us and, as such, they will at times evoke strong reactions.

(...)

5. Please be respectful in both the forums and any private communications with moderators. Moderators and Administrators are volunteers with chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS) that donate many, many hours of their own time to help in the forums.

Warning. Your postings on this public forum will become public. Your text will be available to anyone with an internet connection.

ADDITIONAL INFORMATION1. While we honor passionate and informed discussion we will not tolerate rudeness, insulting posts, personal attacks or purposeless inflammatory posts. Personal attacks include:
Attacking someone's motivation for a post
Attacking someone's character
Referring to members in a pejorative way
Attacking people or groups based on race, age, gender, sexual orientation or religious beliefs.
Referring to a treatment that works for someone in a pejorative way
Sarcasm intended to belittle someone's beliefs, treatment preferences, etc.
Sarcastic belittling attacks on individuals or groups
Questioning whether someone is ‘a mole’. Discerning whether someone is a 'mole' is a slippery slope that we will not engage in.
Questioning someone's medical status.
Critiques of individuals or organizations should be done in the spirit of constructive discourse; simply dumping on a person or organization is not conducive to the kind of conversation we strive for.

(...)

5. Please be respectful in both the forums and any private communications with moderators. Moderators and Administrators are volunteers with chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS) that donate many, many hours of their own time to help in the forums.

Warning. Your postings on this public forum will become public. Your text will be available to anyone with an internet connection.

ADDITIONAL INFORMATION

1. We reserve the right to edit posts, remove offensive posts without notice. Also while these rules cover most common situations, they cannot anticipate everything. Consequently we reserve the right to take any actions we deem appropriate to ensure these forums are not disrupted or abused in any way. We also reserve the right to ban anyone who wilfully violates the forum rules, as access to our forums are a privilege and not a right.

If members note an issue which contravenes something in this policy document they are welcome to bring it to the attention of the Moderators. Please use the “post report” feature to report posts. Do not respond to such topics yourself.

2. We are not responsible for, nor do we vouch for, the content, accuracy, completeness, or usefulness of any message. The messages express the views of the authors, not those of Phoenix Rising or the administrators or moderators. The messages on the Forums do not constitute medical advice by qualified health professionals. Always consult your physician before trying any user recommended treatments. Neither the Phoenix Rising Forums nor Phoenix Rising or the moderators or administrators associated with it are responsible for any negative outcomes deriving from treatments or other information posted on these Forums.
 

Given what's in point 2 al the rest is arbitrary and useless muscle-flexing. The first set of remarks is totally arbitrary, since it means effectively that the moderators decide who is to discuss what in which style and terms, also without redress, genuine discussion - "Consequently we reserve the right to take any actions we deem appropriate to ensure these forums are not disrupted or abused in any way. We also reserve the right to ban anyone who wilfully violates the forum rules, as access to our forums are a privilege and not a right." - or indeed proper politeness on the part of the moderators, let alone intelligence and civilisation, and an understanding of what moves really intelligent academically qualified persons.

My personal guess is that both Martlet and Jody felt abused by some forum members, and are in fact not made from the stuff a good moderaror is made of.

Note how much implicit aggression is contained in the above, and that the persons writing it effectively have a LOT of power at the Phoenix Forums, and are effectively telling other people that they and only they will determine who is to stay, what is appropriate language, what are the appropriately respectful terms by which to address people, however hypocritical and false: Not by speaking the truth of these same folks can style the truth 'offensive', 'insulting', 'disrespectul' and what not, as if the world of men and in particular the forums of Phoenix Rising is full of politically correct saints, who never lie, never posture, never needle with hypocritical respect, never pester...

But Martlet wasn't done yet. Here are first more new rules she quotes, imposes, and lays down without the least respect for the rights and dignity of over 1900 persons on PR

(Moderator Martlet - #56, partially quoted summary)
 

3. The above forum rules, where applicable, also apply to private messaging, blogs, social groups and other types of communications in the Forums. Abuse of the private messaging system may lead to warnings (as above) and/or the revocation of private messaging.

4. By agreeing to these rules, you warrant that you will not post any messages that are obscene, vulgar, sexually-oriented, hateful, threatening, or otherwise violative of any laws.

5. The posts on the Forums are the property of Phoenix Rising and the people who posted them. Posts on the Forum cannot be used outside the Forums for monetary purposes without the consent of the poster.

6. Deleting posts - we consider posts to be an integral aspect of the ME/CFS Community on this Forum and as such we don't allow the en masse removal of all your posts. If you do leave the forums and don't wish to be associated with your posts we can remove your username.

Apparently, the PR-moderators form a team with the legalese eagles of cfsKC - and please note that my problem is not with moderation as such, but with the intellectual, personal and moral qualities of the moderators on PR, and with the right on a fair treatment by moderators plus the right NOT to sign away such rights as one does have under the ordinary laws of the US or Holland, that have the merit of having been publicly discussed and democratically accepted, totally unlike the above.

In any case, I'd had it with the moderators, and I'd certainly had it with others claiming a right in the products of my mind. What I had been wanting since May 5 was either new moderators and new moderating rules (that I have proposed several times) or the removal of both my name and my posts from a forum where moderators can indulge in totally unchecked lying, utterly sickening PMs, and offensive bullying and verbal sadism, sadism as I quoted above, but of which Martlet and Jody do not see the evil and do not hear the evil of, although it is very obvious for those who can think and are not wholly devoid of some historical knowledge.

(Moderator Martlet - #56, partially quoted summary)

I hope everyone will take the time to read them and apply them to their own posts. That way, no-one has to be moderated. But up to now, there have been a few individuals who totally disregard these rules and every time they are reminded not to attack other people personally, then turn on the moderators. It is happening here and, as usual when this happens, there are threats to leave the forum, as if to hold everyone here hostage. This clearly cannot continue. Too many newbies are afraid to post, as they let us know in private messages so, at Cort's request, we will be taking action each and every time the rules are breached.

Again, please remember that you were presumed to have agreed to the forum rules when you joined.

 

 

(Roy S - #58)
 
Quote Originally Posted by Martlet View Post
at Cort's request, we will be taking action each and every time the rules are breached.

Again, please remember that you were presumed to have agreed to the forum rules when you joined.

Thank you for confirming where this is coming from. Also, these rules were not in existence when I joined.

Quite so - but no doubt a rule may be smuggled in that says or implies that by becoming member of the forums you give up your manhood, money and mind besides your income and legal right: It's been done before and elsewhere, and there are always suckers to be found to write one's site full of stuff one cannot possibly write oneself.

Then the legal eagle of the CAA moved in to support Cort and the moderators and complete the set-up to silence anybody with 'inappropriate' thoughts, values, ideas or background:

(jspotila - senior member, CAA rep - #59 in part)

The "Report Post" button is completely democratic. Think someone is being offensive? You can report it. Think someone has gone off topic? You can report it. Think someone is full of crap? You can report it. Have a vendetta against the poster, no matter what he/she said? You can report it. See a troll? Hate someone's avatar? Spot subtle bullying? Report. Report. Report.

 (^ anonymous reporting to anonymous moderators completely democratic ^)
How many posters and posts did Jennie Spotila "
Report. Report. Report."?
Many, it may be rationally feared, for Her Own Colleagues at the CAA
($ 180.000 per year) have been criticized quite sharply, and that is quite
impolite to such sensitive souls who - honestly! - mean well and do well always.

(Moderator Jody - #60)

Thanks Jennie.

Well this is interesting. These last rounds of posts here make me think of people who have been invited to come over to visit and then spit in the face of the hosts. Ya'll are welcome to think what you like. I'm not impressed with the reactions I'm seeing though I must say.
(..)
It's true, these rules didn't exist in the beginning. We didn't need them then.
(..)
I think it is too bad that some folks feel this is a mistake or feel that the forums are repressive or some other negative evil thing. But make no mistake about it, this is the way it's going to be. As Jennie said, the only people who know what things are like for mods and admins, the only ones who are aware of all the questions, demands, requests for intervention and the like -- the only ones who have taken on the burden of dealing with these things, are the mods and admins.

And we everyone of us know that it is necessary to be more actively moderating than we have been. Some of us knew from Day one that we would probably come to this point. (Like me.) Some of us started out with the fresh-faced hope that everyone would behave wisely and with respect for other posters on here, and for a long time that happened.

(..)
Cort was the fresh-faced one. Even he has come to the point where he is convinced something needs to be done about the brawling. It has to be stopped, or at least curtailed as much as we can manage.

Some people might not like the decisions that will be made. They will need to find a way to live with that. Because the mods are now being allowed to moderate as they see fit.

I offer no apologies. I am a bit surprised to hear the rude flak here about it. Of course the people who run the house must ... run the house. What did you expect?

I think that if we had run a tighter ship much earlier than this -- like last fall -- we would not be confronted with a slice of membership who thinks it's just fine to say insulting things to the hosts. We have allowed discourteous crap and here it is.

Like it or not, this is the way it's going to be around here.

 

(Moderator Jody - #63)
Quote Originally Posted by Wildaisy View Post
Perhaps you should go ahead and lock this thread now. Obviously, the only opinions you want to know are those of the moderators, not mere members.

Wildaisy. This is exactly the kind of stuff I'm talking about. A post written for the purpose of being insulting.

I can't fathom how you can possibly think this, after being on these forums all this time. Well, perhaps you do think it. Reading through the tons of threads here should tell you different.

Either way, this is the way we are running this ship.

 

 

(Moderator Jody - #64)

Quote Originally Posted by flybro View Post
Yep WildDaisy it does feel like suck up or sod off.

cringe making

Deja vu, flybro.

Your post sounds like suck up or sod off too. Mostly it sounds like sod off.

So glad you've appreciated Cort's generosity so much all this time that you would talk like this.

 

 

(Moderator Jody - #66)
Quote Originally Posted by Wildaisy View Post
It is so sad what is happening to PR. I have seen it coming for a long time--since Cold-Tears was punished, since Aftermath left, since Cort recruited a stable of watchers to make sure we did not step over the newest invisible and unannounced line of the day. Still, it is sad. This has been a great forum.

Don't you realize that you cannot keep a group of highly intelligent, knowledgeable, creative and articulate people together here unless you let them speak in the way which they find most comfortable? This IS the internet, you know. We are not speaking at the Church Tea. I think most of us anticipate that we are all adults here, we are not expecting children's ideas or chldren's language.

This is sad. I'll miss this forum when it's dead. In the meantime, there are some other forums for xmrv positive people. Hint.

Another ugly post.

I went through it looking for something to respond to but found nothing. So I will simply say you are free to go or stay.

 

 

(Moderator Jody - #67)
Quote Originally Posted by starryeyes View Post
I keep up with the forums fairly well and I've never seen a thread that I think should be locked. I've seen arbitrary comments made by some moderators who shall remain nameless and I've thought they were out of line and also being manipulative about wanting to control members here by threatening to close threads or change forum rules because they're losing arguments.

What a drag that many members here are feeling censored. There's obviously something wrong when a large number of people feel unfairly maligned, as many people here do. Locking threads is just a form of control by some mods who disagree with members.

aftermath said he left because of the moderating here. Since he built this forum, this has obviously been a major problem for a long time. A lot of people feel strongly about this issue here and they make good points about what they're experiencing and seeing happen to other members. I hope the admins here will see the light before there's a mass exodus from PR.

Starry eyes,

This one really surprised me.

I can only say, thanks for the vote of confidence to me and Cort. The mods are working here at our request and following rules we put on the forums. I didn't know you thought this about us. Guess now I know.

 

 

(Moderator Jody - #68)
Quote Originally Posted by starryeyes View Post
Perhaps some of the forum rules are the problem here. I don't like the stories I'm hearing about PMs between some trolls and mods here and some members when those members are being harassed and attacked. I also have a problem with long-standing, highly intelligent and helpful members here being baited to attack others and then jumped on when they take the bait. That's what I'm objecting to. Sometimes this is done by trolls who have been given free reign here and sometimes by mods themselves. I think this is an important dialogue for PR to have right now because these are big problems and threatening to lock threads to shut people up is wrong and it's only going to ruin the forum for everyone and drive divisions between people here further.

It's not about people threatening to leave. It's about people feeling like they need to or want to leave and some who already have left and always I'm hearing it's because of the moderating here. That many members are not all in the wrong and I hope that the PR admins can look at this fairly and try to uphold the original intent of what this forum is supposed to be which is as Koan so eloquently wrote earlier in this thread:

While I am a great believer in civility, I do think we should think long and hard about the imposition of forum rules which may be contra to the goals of advocacy and activism which seems to be the mood of the forum.

This forum was predicated on the idea that reasonable people could be trusted to have reasonable discussions about difficult issues without resorting to rules which could be interpreted in ways which would stifle free speech. It's worked so far, I think.

Peace out,
Koan

ETA For instance, who would decide what constituted a "vendetta"?



Closing threads on people because you disagree with them is censorship with a major bias.

Again I can only say, thanks for the vote of confidence for Cort and me.

Koan's statement in bold is incorrect. That is what we have discovered the hard way. Most people can be trusted to do this. But not all. And the ones who can't, make life miserable for the rest. We've never closed a thread because of personal disagreement. That is ludicrous. The common element -- the only common element -- has been, that a thread has gotten too fractious, we are receiving alot of Reports from unhappy members about it and things are going downhill.

Sorry you don't trust us. But we have a job to do and forums to protect as we best see fit.

 

(Moderator Jody - #71)

For those who are angry that their hands are now being tied and they won't be allowed to attack others or speak rudely ... maybe it won't be as much fun but I think you can find a way to get your point across on a given thread without having to be insulting.

Good grief. That is what we are talking about here. For those who don't know how to have a conversation without being aggressive and surly, I invite you to learn how now. There are plenty of good posts and threads on these forums to model after.

 

(Koan - #75)
 

Quote Originally Posted by Dreambirdie

Taking a moment to check your intention before posting is NOT too much to ask for.

I really do try to do this every time I post. This morning, I took a few hours.

I find the tone of this thread appalling. There is no other way to say it. We each have our own style of communication and I think that I am generally pretty accepting of people speaking from their own truth in their own way. However, I really cannot condone bullying and feel I must speak up.

I just don't see these terribly naughty posters who merit this kind of scolding nor have I witnessed behaviour which could justify addressing a group of good, well intentioned, generous, intelligent, mature and, oh yes, ill adults in this fashion. I find it shocking and deeply disturbing.

Even moderators and admins should take that moment to check their intentions and their attitude. None of us should be exempt from that rule.

 

 

(Moderator Jody - #76)

Koan,

Your thoughts are duly noted.

 

(Moderator Martlet - #78)

Quote Originally Posted by Roy S View Post

Thank you for confirming where this is coming from. Also, these rules were not in existence when I joined.

Of course there weren't any rules. It was a small group of you chatting among yourselves. And of course this decision is coming from Administrators. He who pays the piper... and I don't see any hands raised to help pay for the forum.

 

 

(Spitfire - #80, with her authentic size of lettering her signature )

Yes, I would like to say thank you for all that you do! I appreciate it. 3 is not a lot of people for this site. I am sorry the number is so low. However, I think you do a great job and I have no complaints. Keep up the good work!

Authentic Persons-winners-do not dedicate their lives to a concept of what they imagine they should be; rather, they are themselves and as such do not use their energy putting on a performance, maintaining pretense, and manipulating others."
~Muriel James~

 

(Moderator Martlet - #81)

Quote Originally Posted by Jody View Post

Just, understand this. The decision has been made. It has been too long in coming. No amount of discussion here is going to change what we mods and admins have experienced here in the last 6 months or so.

No it isn't. For those who shout loudest, it is hard to imagine that there are many, many more members who want to speak but who are afraid. AFRAID! Of rationally and calmly voicing an opinion. And for every one who may have left because they don't like being moderated, two or three have sent PMs letting us know that they are leaving because they can't stand the way people are shouted down in the name of "debate and open discussion." Those who shout loudest against moderation have the time to participate, just as you and I once had, because they don't get up every morning to a dozen or so reported posts that they first have to deal with, then a heap of private messages from people who are hurt or angry at the lowered tone in this forum. Those who shout loudest against moderation are often those who shout loudest in its favour when it goes their way - as happened with the recent troll invasion, when I escorted them out en masse (By the way, I have come to see that for some, a "troll" is a new member who doesn't toe the line of those who shout loudest). And those who shout loudest would be outraged if they were on the receiving end of the sort of stuff admin and mods put up with every day because it is simply not possible to please everyone all the time.

 

 

(Moderator "Everything is relative"-Kurt -#82)

Quote Originally Posted by Dreambirdie View Post

Taking a moment to check your intention before posting is NOT too much to ask for.

Always point a loaded message at the ground...

 

 

(Spindrift - #84)

Quote Originally Posted by Martlet View Post

Of course there weren't any rules. It was a small group of you chatting among yourselves. And of course this decision is coming from Administrators. He who pays the piper... and I don't see any hands raised to help pay for the forum.

Martlet, I think that is an insult to those of us that donate to the forum. Even if you are a moderator or maybe even more BECAUSE you are a moderator, please consider what you are writing before you do!

 

 

(Moderator Jody - #85)

Quote Originally Posted by kurt View Post

Always point a loaded message at the ground...

Kurt I have the feeling I really like that.

But I'm not quite sure I have the right meaning in mind. Could you elaborate a bit for me?

 

 

(Akrasia, junior member - #87)

Ever since I arrived here in October the hand of moderation has grown heavier and its practitioners more rigid and complacent. Do you know how you sound? Are you truly protecting the "sensitive", the vulnerable, or advancing a policy of self censorship.
(..)
There has been a disturbing overlap between people who have challenged the Science paper in extremely wrong headed ways, supported the CAA, and have expressed discomfort with the WPI's robust responses and the people who are pillorying Gerwyn.

It is precisely suburban blandness, the stilling of edgy voices from the mainstream debate that has landed us in this situation. One of the icons here should be a face with its mouth gagged.

 

(Moderator Martlet - #90, partial)

(...)

Cort has very generously and willingly taken on the expense of providing us with a very nice package for everyone to enjoy and my comment was intended to show that forum owners - the ones who pay for them, set them up and oversee them - have every right to decide the rules of engagement. i.e. Cort pays the piper and therefore he calls the tune. There are a few people who have, one way or another, imagined that they should decide whether or not there should be rules, whether or not this or that post should be moderated etc. My comment was entirely directed towards those who complain about Cort's decisions regarding the way these forums are run.

 

(Kit, member - #91)

Quote Originally Posted by jspotila View Post

For example, Rebecca said, "Damage offered with civility and a smile is still damage." Did she mean this literally? It implies that damage is being intentionally offered with a smile as some kind of "spoonful of sugar" ploy.

No it doesn't. Damage can be done and often is by people who simply don't know what they are doing, it doesn't have to be intentional, nor does it have to be a ploy.

Quote Originally Posted by jspotila View Post

Did she mean that as well? Or was it an intentional exaggeration to make a point?

This doesn't make any sense to me.

 

 

(Moderator Jody - #94, partial)

(..)

Jackie

You mentioned in her post feeling ashamed that you can't donate, but many of us can't, girl. I can't either. But that doesn't matter. And it wasn't what Martlet was trying to get across.

She's just saying, these are Cort's forums. Those who want to take him and us to task for how it's run need to keep this in mind. It's not a democracy. It can't be. I know you know all this.

 

(Moderator Jody - #95)
Quote Originally Posted by julius View Post
I took it as meaning that this is a privately owned and maintained forum. And as such, the rules are decided by the owner. People are invited to come in and join, but this is not a 'right'.

The owners of this forum believe in civility and want to have a place where sick people can come and enjoy, relax, learn, make mistakes........

If someone wants a place to belittle sick and mistreated people, then they are free to start their own forum.

Julius,

Well said.

 

(Koan - #96)
Quote Originally Posted by julius View Post
I took it as meaning that this is a privately owned and maintained forum. And as such, the rules are decided by the owner. People are invited to come in and join, but this is not a 'right'.

The owners of this forum believe in civility and want to have a place where sick people can come and enjoy, relax, learn, make mistakes........

If someone wants a place to belittle sick and mistreated people, then they are free to start their own forum.

Julius, my friend,
It pains me that you and I must now reach across a misunderstanding. I am so very fond of you, as you know. I want you to know that we are all struggling to make sure that this is not "a place to belittle sick and mistreated people". We just disagree on what that means.

Please try to see our good intentions.

with affection,
Koan

 

(Moderator Jody - #97)

Quote Originally Posted by Koan View Post

I belong to a couple of Buddhist forums and, when considering the lamentable situation here, often think about how effective skillful, respectful moderation can be.

Honestly.

You just have no problem with insulting Cort, and me, Martlet, Kurt and Mark.

And you don't find that rude and lamentable. Fascinating.

 

 

(Koan - #102)
Quote Originally Posted by Jody View Post
Honestly.

You just have no problem with insulting Cort, and me, Martlet, Kurt and Mark.

And you don't find that rude and lamentable. Fascinating.

I'm sorry if I have insulted you, Jody. That was never my intention. Unfortunately, you and I have a difficult history which, I fear, makes it almost impossible for us to discuss this productively.

If I have insulted anyone else, I most sincerely apologize. I don't like the style of moderation that has been adopted. I do think it is bullying. I did not intend to imply that anyone was a bully. I think it is possible to subscribe to a method or mode which has an effect that does not actually belong to the person who implements it. (Is that at all understandable? I have been in a deep and profound fog for weeks now.)

Anyway, I regret that this conversation causes hurt to the many people it does. It is so very sad that we cannot lead with our hearts. As HHDL says, "Whenever possible, be kind. It is always possible." I apologize for my lapses in kindness.

Peace out,
Koan

 

 

(Moderator Jody - #104)
Quote Originally Posted by Koan View Post
I'm sorry if I have insulted you, Jody. That was never my intention. Unfortunately, you and I have a difficult history which, I fear, makes it almost impossible for us to discuss this productively.

If I have insulted anyone else, I most sincerely apologize. I don't like the style of moderation that has been adopted. I do think it is bullying. I did not intend to imply that anyone was a bully. I think it is possible to subscribe to a method or mode which has an effect that does not actually belong to the person who implements it. (Is that at all understandable? I have been in a deep and profound fog for weeks now.)

Anyway, I regret that this conversation causes hurt to the many people it does. It is so very sad that we cannot lead with our hearts. As HHDL says, "Whenever possible, be kind. It is always possible." I apologize for my lapses in kindness.

Peace out,
Koan

As far as I am concerned when you say style of moderating is bullying you are saying we are bullies. Yes. And no I don't see how it could be taken otherwise.

 

( ^ Texbook example of confusing the actor and the act ^)

(Lily - #106)
Quote Originally Posted by Martlet View Post
That is so true. I have never belonged to a forum, large or small, where there is so much discussion on how it should be run, let alone where administrators and moderators allow offensive posts directed at them to remain. How many moderators have we now lost because the stress of reading all manner of insults have been flung at them, causing them stress and, in some cases, relapse? How many good, solid, balanced members have refused when invited to become moderators because they have witnessed the flak that we get? I've lost count. Completely lost count. So it falls on three moderators and you, with the occasional intervention of Cort. But people need to go on fair notice that this will not continue. Members may argue all they want with moderators' opinions on topics under discussion, but there is no reason why we should take the sort of flak that we would not tolerate if it was directed at another member. Perhaps then, when moderators and administrators receive exactly the same protection that we afford other members, we might be able to attract a few more.

Here we go again! Really??? Really!!! The idea that this forum is worse than most and has mistreated so many moderators is completely ridiculous! I am completely appalled and disgusted with your statements once again, Martlet.

Go ahead and remove me. I welcome it.

 

(Moderator Jody - #108)
Quote Originally Posted by Lily View Post
Here we go again! Really??? Really!!! The idea that this forum is worse than most and has mistreated so many moderators is completely ridiculous! I am completely appalled and disgusted with your statements once again, Martlet.

Go ahead and remove me. I welcome it.

Really Lily?? Really????

As I posted earlier, I completely agree with what Martlet said. Sorry we appall you. It is mutual today.

Would you like me to remove you? Would you welcome that too? I'd be interested in hearing.

 

(Moderator Jody - #110)

So, I've been reflecting on this thread, the posts since last night ... and really, so many of these posts (not the kind ones, obviously) just underscore my original point.

There are a few people here who like to be aggressive and insulting. There are a few who take joy in attacking my moderators. I mean -- some of them are doing that right now on this thread.

So back to my main point. This is an ugly trend that has been allowed to go on too long, and it is going to stop now. Still trying to decide whether to lock this thread and start the Change now, or let it play a bit longer ...

 

(Koan - #112)

Quote Originally Posted by Jody View Post

As far as I am concerned when you say style of moderating is bullying you are saying we are bullies. Yes. And no I don't see how it could be taken otherwise.

Jody,

When I was a very young woman I was a child care worker. I sometimes worked with profoundly affected Autistic children in a Behaviour Modification Unit. One of my duties was to take these wee kids, put them in chairs shoved right up against the table and make them put pegs in boards while i timed them with a stop watch. (OMG!) I was to insist they do this totally meaningless thing, and time it, in what I believed was an effort to help them. The method was bullying, and I did opt out, but at the time it was thought to be useful. I wasn't a bully but I was bullying.

I hope that helps to clear things up.

 

 

(Brenda, senior member - 113)

Just to add my 2 cents on a forum I have increasingly come to dislike because of the heavy moderation - yes people have been rude to the mods but there is a lot of disatisfaction with the behaviour of the team and the fact that we have lost great posters who got so fed up they left, yet the team is acting innocent - who me! When there is a conflict all of this resentment spills out like it did with Cold and I myself have been really fed up a few times, once when a poster was allowed to attack me because of my religion until the thread was locked and thereby I had to suffer as well when the poster could have been told to cool it, and then the other time when my post was edited and I was accused of slander which was ridiculous.

Other mods manage to get it right and I do think that the team do not take into allowance there are very sick people who easily lose their cool at times. There is no allowance for this I feel. It all could be handled much more sensitively. I dare you to put up a poll to see how many here support the moderation behaviour. Giving a little freedom to express our peeves does not mean that they are doing it right. I don`t see the forum lasting.

 

(Moderator Martlet - #115)

Quote Originally Posted by Koan View Post

I'm sorry if I have insulted you, Jody. That was never my intention. Unfortunately, you and I have a difficult history which, I fear, makes it almost impossible for us to discuss this productively.

You see, there you go again. A sweet apology followed by a slap.
 

If I have insulted anyone else, I most sincerely apologize. I don't like the style of moderation that has been adopted. I do think it is bullying. I did not intend to imply that anyone was a bully.

And again.

I think it is possible to subscribe to a method or mode which has an effect that does not actually belong to the person who implements it. (Is that at all understandable? I have been in a deep and profound fog for weeks now.)

No, it is not understandable to me. Some very ill people visit these forums and are in as much of a fog as you claim. Too sick, in fact, to post to any contentious topics and too sick, sometimes, to even read some of the insults that fly without going away sicker than when they came. If it is bullying to moderate according to the rules, then it is even more bullying to tell sick people who are genuinely seeking information that if they can't stand the heat or the tone, then to "get out of the kitchen" or to put people on "ignore." I think THAT is bullying and so do a lot of people who are suffering because of that sort of attitude. You should read our PMs! But then, we respect the privacy of those who report posts or who write to us privately. We are not of the opinion that some of those causing most discord have the right to know who they are upsetting and then turn their attacks upon such individuals.
 

It is so very sad that we cannot lead with our hearts.

We ARE finally leading with our hearts. We are standing up for the sickest, least vocal, most sensitive amongst us and giving notice that we will not tolerate what we have perceived as bullying by a handful of members who simply will not be disagreed with.

As HHDL says, "Whenever possible, be kind. It is always possible."

So moderators should be kind to all but a few members are permitted to personally slam those members who disagree with them? This seems more like, "All animals are equal but some are more equal than others."

As Jody said, she was under no obligation to let members know that things will change. We could have simply gone ahead and implemented the rules fully. I think it was a kindness of her to give warning.

 

(Moderator Jody, to Brenda - #116, partial)

What makes you and others of your perspective think that it is okay to come into this house and spit on the hosts? We have allowed it to go on, and now we have to change that.

You no longer have the right to come here and smear the mods.

 

(Flybro - #117, partial)

(..)
Jody and Martlet make statements about the flak they get, ever considered why you get so much flak, perhaps the job in hoand is too much for you, perhaps it is time for you to move aside.

If know one steps of for the roles once you've both gone, come back by all means.

But at least have the decency to to see if you are both part of the problem, and not the solution.

 

(Moderator Jody, quoting Moderator Martlet against Koan - #118):

(..)
I second Martlet's post.

 

(Moderator Martlet - #119)

Quote Originally Posted by spindrift View Post

Jody, this is about Martlet making bad choices about what she says as a moderator. I donate to the forums and I do expect moderators to be politically correct. I have more that once been upset with Martlet being politically incorrect in her position as a moderator.

As Jody says - THREE OF US - trying to moderate a forum where we receive dozens of complaints a day and where we can take action on just a handful, and we are supposed to be politically correct? Have you not noticed that the politically correct moderators have left? And not because of moderation style. They have left because they were tired of being harassed and insulted every time they stepped in to do their job. Some of them have been in tears because of the insults hurled at them for stepping in as sweetly as they could. Others became sicker because of a handful of members and had to quit. There was a time when we could all be nicely PC, but that was a long time ago. Hundreds of insults later, we had toughened up - those of us who remained.

 

(Moderator Jody - #120, partial)

Flybro,

My post to Lily was taking her post that was baiting Martlet, and taking the points she had in her post and reflected them back to her. I was showing her the ugliness of her words.

The rest of your post is way out of line.

 

(Lily, with 644 posts, member since Nov 2009, to Jody - # 121)
Quote Originally Posted by Jody View Post
Really Lily?? Really????

As I posted earlier, I completely agree with what Martlet said. Sorry we appall you. It is mutual today.

Would you like me to remove you? Would you welcome that too? I'd be interested in hearing.

Yes, Jody, by all means, remove me. I'm quite finished here.

 

(Koan, 2565 posts - #122)
Quote Originally Posted by marlet
Some very ill people visit these forums and are in as much of a fog as you claim.

Sorry, Marlet, unless I have mistaken your meaning, this really is not cool. I did not expect to have my claims regarding my symptoms questioned here of all places.

Not cool.

 

(Moderator Jody - #123)

Quote Originally Posted by Lily View Post

Yes, Jody, by all means, remove me. I'm quite finished here.

If you're quite certain Lily, I will do so.

 

 

(bel canto, 83 posts - #125)

Wow, Martlett,

Why would you attack someone making an apology? It would be hard to be a nicer person than Koan. This has gotten so ugly.

 

(Moderator Martlet - #126, partial, in reply to flybro)

(..)
What we want is for little cliques to stop treating every new member who doesn't toe the line as if they are trolls. What we want is for this to be a safe place for all, and if some heavy-handed moderation is needed, then so be it.
(..)

 

(Lily, 644 posts, member since Nov 2000 - #129)
Quote Originally Posted by Jody View Post
If you're quite certain Lily, I will do so.

I'm quite certain, Jody. This may seem impulsive, Jody, but it is not. It's been in the making since last February.

Bye bye all.

(^ Lily was promptly removed, but her name and posts still are on PR ^)

 

(Moderator Jody - #134)

Spindrift.

Get off of Martlet please.

 

(Moderator Jody - #135)

This thread has gotten way off topic, to put it mildly.

My purpose this morning was to say, we are going to be requiring people who are rude to members and moderators and admins to desist.

The way it's gone since then is quite ironic considering the original topic. But it has all only underscored to me that this step is essential and would have been better if we'd taken it sooner.

 

(^ seen no evil, heard no evil, spoken no evil and done no evil ^)

(Moderator Martlet - #136)
Quote Originally Posted by jackie View Post
"CLAIM"? I bolded it...and i may have taken this the wrong way, (but as I'm NOT foggy today, it hit a nerve)... I might take it in a less than positive way no matter where it came from BUT - maybe even more so, if it was written by a Mod, as I probably expect/assume a high degree of objectiveness from admins/mods/the folks in charge (whether this expectation is fair or not, on my part.

The word "claim" is used in its purest form ... just as a doctor would use it. eg. "Claims no chest pain" as the doc wrote on my husband's notes a week or two ago, when he was sent to cardiology. It doesn't mean the person is not believed. It means that there is no way to objectively measure the statement so the person's word - in this instance both Koan and those who write to us privately - is taken at face value.

 

(Kati, 1023 posts - #137)
Quote Originally Posted by Jody View Post
Honestly.

You just have no problem with insulting Cort, and me, Martlet, Kurt and Mark.

And you don't find that rude and lamentable. Fascinating.

This is a real time example of bullying and being rude, coming from a moderator. Just sayin.

 

(Kati, 1023 posts - #138)

Quote Originally Posted by Jody View Post

Really Lily?? Really????

As I posted earlier, I completely agree with what Martlet said. Sorry we appall you. It is mutual today.

Would you like me to remove you? Would you welcome that too? I'd be interested in hearing.

Lily was talking to Martlet. Jody here is bullying Lily. Another example. just sayin.

 

 

(Moderator Jody - #139)

Kati,

Did you read what I was responding to? You're fine with the attacks on me and the mods here, then?

 

 

(Flybro, 522 posts - #141 )

To all who get this far.

I beleive this thread is eveidence of the problem that thwo moderators cause.

There is bullying.

I know of no one that has commented on this thread out of malice.

and again the discussion goes against the mod opinion and we hear about closing threads.

and

The word "claim" is used in its purest form ... just as a doctor would use it. eg. "Claims no chest pain" as the doc wrote on my husband's notes a week or two ago, when he was sent to cardiology. It doesn't mean the person is not believed. It means that there is no way to objectively measure the statement so the person's word - in this instance both Koan and those who write to us privately - is taken at face value.

well thats OK then, but dont appolagies for the misunderstanding you created.

(^ S OED: Claim (...) 1. A demand of something as due; an assertion of a right for something ^ )

(Kati, 1023 posts - #144)
Quote Originally Posted by Jody View Post
Kati,

Did you read what I was responding to? You're fine with the attacks on me and the mods here, then?

I regret to say a lot of the time it is inappropriate use of power. The most recent one was when you asked spindrift to get off Martlet.
I am highly disturbed by the bullying the moderators are doing and people leaving, or stepping down from moderation (Kim). The encouragement of Lily leaving were totally inappropriate. Who's gonna protect the innocent bystanders? And is this thread gonna be closed suddenly again because some people chose to express their point of view?
Respectfully.

By the way, Koan is the most peaceful person I know here for sure. Lily has never done anything wrong. Kim was the best moderator around.

 

(JSpotila, 425 posts, CAA-rep, attorney at law - 146)

Bully?

I don't understand why the "bully" word is being slung around. A bully is "a person who is habitually cruel or overbearing, especially to smaller or weaker people" according to the dictionary I have at hand.

Koan strikes me as neither smaller nor weaker than other forum members! And the moderators are not habitually cruel or overbearing. In fact, I have the distinct impression that the moderators would prefer to post like all us regular folks and not have to speak as moderators at all.

(^ S OED Bully (..) now esp. a person (or animal) who makes himself or herself
   a terror to the weak or defenseless (..) a hired ruffian.
  (..)
  to intimidate; to overawe ^)

(Moderator Jody - #150, with my boldings of pronouns)
Quote Originally Posted by starryeyes View Post
Jody, I didn't mean you and Cort. Don't take this personally. I have no problem with how you've been running things.

But this is what I'm saying. What you are taking issue with is ultimately with how we're running things. An issue with a mod is really an issue with us. The mods are here because we asked them to be here. They are posting and so forth when there's a problem because we asked them to. They are doing their best to adhere to our rules and insist that others do so, because we asked them to.

The buck has to stop with me and Cort. Do you see?

I am just going to start repeating myself so ... I'll stop now.

 

 

(Moderator Jody - #151):

bel canto,

How it looks from here, is that we are being attacked. And more and more members are jumping on board to take part. When we reply in an honest way to being attacked, we are bullies. When the members throw in a few more kicks they are just expressing themselves.

 

 

(Sing, 475 posts -  #161)

All the moderators have my support--have had and continue to have. Thank you.

Perfection is not a choice we get to have, for others or for ourselves. I don't expect it and neither should anyone else. The ideal isn't achievable, desirable or necessary. We can respect, help, inform, differ and share with each other without that.

I agree that we need to be polite, especially when involved in a conflict or expressing differences.. Some people sometimes, however, like to argue and fight. These provoke others or openly sling the mud. These typically like to portray themselves as standing for principle and high ideals. Don't fall for it. Pretty soon the mudslinging has created quite a pigpen.

 

 

(Owner Cort, 2306 posts - #164, partial)

(..)

I agree with Sing. If you look across the CFS Community you'll find that the most contentious and sometimes destructive groups continually appeal to their high stand on principles. They proclaim that they have the high moral ground and they use it to whip the rest of the community mercilessly.

The ends do not justify the means' here; ie its ok for me to be ugly because I'm standing up for X, Y or Z" That's not OK here. We don't need someone to take the high moral ground - despite all the rah-rahing it produces -that's dangerous. That's fine to to do in advocacy work but not amongst ourselves. We're all moral, we're all patients....

 

(Victoria, 814 posts - #166, partial)

Dear me, some people have got their knickers in a knot.

I consider myself a guest here in Phoenix Rising's house, and as such, I try to mind my manners as a guest.

(..)

Being a guest in the Phoenix Forum house does not give one the right play havoc in the rooms & bite the heads of the owners (or bite the hands of the owner's family, that feed us & look after our well being while we are visiting).

Down Doggies, down, I say.

 

(Stuart, 133 posts - #167, partial)

Jody, I have noticed your tone in posting has a rather snarling tone to it, when trying to introduce a new policy to the members, which are a bit more than guests, you do a disservice to the site and the forum to engage them in a hostile fashion. Upon reflection, if you are able you might see that your attitude and tone of "this is the way it is, like or not, your free to go, I am ticked off at you all anyway" invited the response you are now claiming to be surprised to be receiving.

There is also the suggestion that "this is our playground, if you don't like how we tell you to play, find your own" very divisive. I accept that the moderator job is difficult, but when some long time valued members complain, you might consider that even earlier comments about 'immoderate moderation,' heavy handedness, or moderators who became advocates of a viewpoint on certain threads, had a greater danger to the future of this endevour than 'trolls' have ever been.

May 24 arrives...

(Moderator Jody - #168)

Nothing personal, Stuart, yours just happened to be one post too many for me today. If it hadn't been yours I expect it would have been someone else's.

I accept your take on what I have said today as your opinion and you have a right to it. I know what my intentions were, what I think I did and what I think was done in reaction to it. And I have done a good deal of thinking about the events here earlier today.

I don't know of anywhere else that I would even consider walking back into after what, in my opinion, happened to me today. If I knew that I might encounter people who criticized me, called me names, attacked my character and ridiculed me and then button-holed me as divisive and attacking the innocent ... I would not go back there. Even if I knew that most of the people in the place were very friendly to me, I would also know I was setting myself up for a possible bad time with people I did not feel a sense of belonging and security with. That the stuff that has transpired on this thread today is quite acceptable to so many of our members ... this astonishes me. The people I know (except for here) don't do this to each other.

I have been here since very nearly the beginning. This has been an important place for me for the past year. So I am not going to make any quick decisions. But the way it looks right now ... and I am feeling very quiet within myself as I type this ... staying here might not be a healthy thing for me.

I'm not looking for a response, nor yet another rebuke, thanks. I am just saying what I'm thinking. That used to feel like a safe thing to do here a long time ago. Maybe it's not anymore.

 

(Moderator Martlet - #169)

With that in mind, Jody, and given that a handful of members have given you a rough time for being up front and honest about what is going to happen, I think it's time to close this thread. Many have had their say and have behaved pretty shabbily. Their responses have angered me far more than I normally experience because you set out to do them a kindness by giving due warning.

So folks, from here on in, forum rules will be fully applied across the board. Any personal attacks on anyone will be dealt with the instant they are brought to our attention - and that includes attacks on admins and mods.

No more discussion.

(^ Moderator Martlet closes thread ^)

(Moderator Jody - #170)

Opened thread long enough to say, Thanks Martlet. Closed again.

( ^ Opened thread long enough to say, Thanks Martlet. Closed again ^)

(Moderator Martlet - #171)

And I have reopened it just long enough to say that you are very welcome.

(^ And I have reopened it just long enough to say that you are very welcome. ^)

(Owner Cort - #172, my link added)

(..)

The moderators are reasonable people who are very amenable to working out differences using PM's. At times they have to adjust and they know that there is. Forums members have to adjust as well.

Once we get rid of the insults then the 'heat' of the conversation will turn down; the moderators won't feel badgered, which will relax the Forum participants and a better tone will prevail. First we have to be very clear that some types of comments are just not acceptable.

Like any community we have to have rules to provide a livable environment for those willing to abide by them. This type of Forum may not be for everybody.

 

(^ reopened thread ^)

(spindrift, 268 posts - #173

Thanks for reopening the thread, Cort. This has given me hope for a better future of the forum.

 

 

(Flybro, 572 posts - #174

Thank You for re-opening the the thread Cort

OK

I did not appreciate having my blogg edited by you and Martlet. It smacks of more of the same problem.

I'll try harder to get my point across, in terms that dont offend anyones sensibilities.

How many times have mods had to intervene in disputes amongst the posters that complained about the moderation. How many people have to speak up, its not as though people are complaining for fun.

Everyone that complained did so becasue they dont want the forums to loose what brought them here.

it s my opinion that many good people have left becasue of the style of moderation.

I also believe that this is why you are so short on ppl wanting to join the mod or admin team.

I'm not a trouble maker, neither is Koan, neither was Lilly, nor are many that have spoken up.

The mods that we have been complianing about are causing problems beacuae of the tone of the moderation.

When a complaint is offered up against them they dont listen, they attack.

What are the reasonable people supposed to do?

I asked if I could put one on ignore, so I wouldn't feel offended by their comments.

How would you like us to complain about the moderation?

None of us seem to have found the right tone for an acceptable complaint.

We have tried.

The word bullying is getting thrown around becasue people are feeling bullied into silence.

It takes courage to speak up, and that should be encouraged, especially amomgst people that would prefer to wlk away.

However when they speak up, when they try to express there concerns, they are stepped on.

Surely thats not what you want?

 

(Owner Cort, 230 posts - #175

I'll try harder to get my point across, in terms that dont offend anyones sensibilities.

this is the key point. We're going to close this thread down because all the pertinent points have been made and its exhausting for all of us to keep up. To conclude, this conversation does not apply to the vast majority of people using the Forums but we are asking -really insisting on - a new level of politeness from a few members. Thanks!

(^ closes thread ^)


And thus I quoted, quite fairly also, I think.

I could say much about it, in various tones, styles and vocabularies also, but I shall for the moment just say that I hope the above makes clear why I do not want to be a member of the forum thus moderated and with those moderators.


P.S. More on the reasons for why not:

And some relevant background knowledge:

"What are we, then, at present?"
"We find that at present the human race is divided politically into one wise man, nine knaves and ninety fools out of every hundred. That is, by an optimistic observer. The nine knaves assemble themselves under the banner of the most knavish among them, and become 'politicians': the wise man stands out, because he knows himself to be hopelessly outnumbered, and devotes himself to poetry, mathematics or philosophy; while the ninety fools plod off behind the banners of the nine villains, according to fancy, into the labyrinths of chicanery, malice and warfare. It is pleasant to have command, observed Sancho Panza, even over a flock of sheep, and that is why politicians raise their banners. It is, moreover, the same thing for the sheep, whatever the banner. If it is democracy, then the nine knaves will become members of parliament; if fascism will become party leaders; if communism, commissars. Nothing will be different, except the name. The fools will still be fools, the knaves still leaders, the result still exploitation. As for the wise man, his lot will be much the same under any ideology. Under democracy he will be encouraged to starve to death in a garret, under fascism he will be put in a concentration camp, under communism he will be liquidated. This is an optimistic but on the whole scientific statement (...)"
   (T.H. White: "The Book of Merlyn", p. 50-1)

P.P.S. It may be that the above text needs a little more formattting, but my health is presently not up to it. And having read this true once more, it's likely I would have left the forum anyway, apart from Mark and Kurt, simply because the above mode of operation and standard and style of "discussion" o the part of those with power on the forum is pretty sickening by my standards, and I do not want to be censored by anonymous dumbos, whether moderators or forum members who complain secretively behind my back e.g. when I write the truth about Dutch collaboration in WW II or Srebrenica.

And I just despise totalitarianism, totalitarian attitudes and political correct speech as have now been effectively introduced on the Phoenix Forums and will remain in force until the personell - "the site leaders" - changes completely or almost completely.

Should others do and think like me? Whatever they think, they have fewer possibilities than I have, and as I indicated before, for the purpose of finding information about ME and sharing ideas and experiences with likeminded folks - provided one keeps Our Benevolent Moderators happy, of course - the Phoenix Forums are still quite good.

But if I write for a place then not with moderators like Mark and also not the others, and not for a place where the merest idiot can drivel forth unstoppably because he keeps vomiting respect all around: Then the idiots have taken over the asylum. (*)


As to ME/CFS (that I prefer to call ME):

1. Anthony Komaroff

Ten discoveries about the biology of CFS (pdf)

2. Malcolm Hooper THE MENTAL HEALTH MOVEMENT:  
PERSECUTION OF PATIENTS?
3. Hillary Johnson

The Why

4. Consensus (many M.D.s) Canadian Consensus Government Report on ME (pdf)
5. Eleanor Stein

Clinical Guidelines for Psychiatrists (pdf)

6. William Clifford The Ethics of Belief
7. Paul Lutus

Is Psychology a Science?

8. Malcolm Hooper Magical Medicine (pdf)

Short descriptions:

1. Ten reasons why ME/CFS is a real disease by a professor of medicine of Harvard.
2. Long essay by a professor emeritus of medical chemistry about maltreatment of ME.
3. Explanation of what's happening around ME by an investigative journalist.
4. Report to Canadian Government on ME, by many medical experts.
5. Advice to psychiatrist by a psychiatrist who understands ME is an organic disease
6. English mathematical genius on one's responsibilities in the matter of one's beliefs:
   "it is wrong always, everywhere, and for anyone, to believe anything upon
     insufficient evidence
".
7. A space- and computer-scientist takes a look at psychology.
8. Malcolm Hooper puts things together status 2010.

"Ah me! alas, pain, pain ever, forever!

No change, no pause, no hope! Yet I endure.
I ask the Earth, have not the mountains felt?
I ask yon Heaven, the all-beholding Sun,
Has it not seen? The Sea, in storm or calm,
Heaven's ever-changing Shadow, spread below,
Have its deaf waves not heard my agony?
Ah me! alas, pain, pain ever, forever!
"
     - (Shelley, "Prometheus Unbound") 

    "It was from this time that I developed my way of judging the Chinese by dividing them into two kinds: one humane and one not. "
     - (Jung Chang)


See also: ME -Documentation and ME - Resources


Supplements on ME


   
  ME: On having severe ME
  ME: !! Seriour Health GET + CBT Warning !!
   
  ME: ME and Human Rights
   
  ME: Back to the Middle Ages with professor Simon Wessely
  ME: Back to the Middle Ages with professor Simon Wessely - P.S.
 

Studies in MEdical Sadism

   
  0: Studies in MEdical Sadism (overview + Kumar & Clark's Clinical Medicine)
 
  1: "Die Mörder sind unter uns" (the baseness of some medics and politicians)
  2: "101 Good Reasons" (clarification CBT+GET & 101 reasons by G. Crowhurst)
  3: "The evidence & the techniques" (current techniques of MEdical sadism)
  4: Intermezzo - Lucian (a very disrespectful most intelligent satirist)
  5: The amazing & great Kim & Dr. Yes (alas still not well-reformatted yet)
  6: Herr Professor & Frau Doctor Wessely (The Real Truth metavisually)
  7: Professor Simon Wessely's many mental issues (just so: a real sicko)
  7a: P.S.: Professor Simon Wessely's many mental issues (the logic of it)
  8 : Professor Wessely's crap completely clarified (visually) (DrSpeedy+profSW)
  9: Studies in MEdical Sadism - 9 : Dr. Yes maltreated
   
  Dutch
   
  ME-disch sadisme op wereldschaal: Zeer verbitterend nieuws
  ME: Waarom dokter Mengele medicijnen studeerde - 1
  ME: Waarom dokter Mengele medicijnen studeerde - 2
  ME: Uitstekende studie over ME en CGT en GET
   
  Visual
   
  ME: !! Seriour Health GET + CBT Warning !!
  ME: Unsere Doktoren - Ohne Wörter - 2

P.P.S. ME - Resources needs is a Work In Progress that hasn't progressed today.

(*) Besides of which I do not want to be on a place where my human dignity (and that of many Dutchmen) gets besmirched by a moderator with grave issues nor on a place where I have to defend my human integrity against folks who are totally anonymous and extra-ordinarily stupid, gross and rude, meanwhile smiling like a villain that their sanctimonious shit is good because it is served forth hypocritically in a tone of respect that insists that one is disrespectful if one insists on rational discussion. (Maybe a forum for academically qualified with ME might be an idea... but not here and now, and I also have known many a stupid academic.)

Maarten Maartensz

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